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The no excuses culture

steveblank.com

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Re: The no excuses culture

#91

Post by watwut »

mindcrime wrote: post #84
watwut wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would not say so. In agile, individual developer does not have personal responsibility for anything. In this system, individual person had own task and was accountable for that task completion. It also sounds like they were working independently and wouldn't get help unless they asked for it. "I will fire you if deadline is suddenly not met and no one else is there find out before if you don't say so" is on the opp…

In agile, individual developer does not have personal responsibility for anything. Where in the world do you get this idea? For one, there is no such thing as "agile", in the sense of a prescriptive methodology that would make such a declaration. There are just individual methodologies that claim varying levels of adherence to the Agile Manifesto[1]. And even then, the popular "Agile" methodologies like Scrum, XP, et…

That was my experience with agile. So, on earth in software companies :). But theoretically, agile methodologies I studied were about team responsibility.

"Some say that teams are self-organizing and that you succeed or fail as a team"

That is opposite of personal responsibility. There is very little space for making individual decisions and being responsible for them. If you like, you can force your vision, but whole team will be responsible if it was wrong - not you. If you like, you submissively accept other peoples opinions and it will still be the same thing accountability vise.

"I think everybody understands that that later part doesn't mean you can just come in and stare at the walls all day with no consequences."

No you can not and that is good thing. However, it is totally different then case described in the article where employee had to manage own long term tasks without any supervision at all. Article implies that employee was responsible for communicating delays without anyone actively asking about it.

"If someone is "checking up on you every four hours" it's almost 100% certain that whatever process you're using has absolutely nothing to do with "agile"."

Tasks are supposed to be split into small tasks of maximum of half day length, you report on them as you go, there is daily standup and progress is supposed to be evaluated every week.

Re: The no excuses culture

#92

Post by valuearb »

rhizome wrote: post #55
cj wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You missed Steve Blank's point. My interpretation is he's simply advocating that if someone is aware of an issue that will set a project deadline back, don't keep it a secret and surprise everyone when the deadline isn't met. Instead of "management by fear", build a culture where missing meeting deadlines is OK as long as a valid reason was communicated to the stake holders BEFORE the due date (no surprises). If a so…

My interpretation is he's simply advocating that if someone is aware of an issue that will set a project deadline back, don't keep it a secret and surprise everyone when the deadline isn't met. If this is his point, he's a lousy writer.

He clearly stated this more than once.

Re: The no excuses culture

#93

Post by TheOtherHobbes »

RandomOpinion wrote: post #81
Animats wrote: post #67

That's the Curtis LeMay approach to management.[1] He was famously into management by fear. We see this problem in software, especially in DevOps and "agile" shops, because the process is so forgiving of delay. In a manufacturing plant, no product comes out until all the component parts are ready. So there's a "no excuses" culture about running out of parts, or having an assembly line station down unexpectedly. Softw…

> He was famously into management by fear. The article you linked to says precisely the opposite and is more in line with the blog post. LeMay made it clear that results were expected and got them.

LeMay almost started WWIII. I don't think he's a good example in this context.

I'm in the "tone deaf management bullshit" camp. It starts with the assumption that your people are basically incompetent losers and it's up to you to stomp around and whip them into shape.

It doesn't work in most areas, and it especially doesn't work in software dev.

If your people aren't acting like responsible professionals, either your culture is broken, or you're hiring the wrong people for the wrong reasons - or both.

Given the chance most adult professionals will be adult and professional. Some will even take pride in doing a good job.

If that's not happening, unprofessional management won't fix it.

Re: The no excuses culture

#94

Post by valuearb »

kristianc wrote: post #29
cj wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps you didn't make it to this part of the article: > By accountable I meant, “We agreed on a delivery date, and between now and the delivery date, it’s OK if you ask for help because you’re stuck, or something happened outside of your control. But do not walk into my office the day something is due and give me an excuse. It will cost you your job.” That kind of accountable. > The goal wasn’t inflexible dates and…

Ah the 'I'll fire your ass if you give me an excuse on the due date but of course an attempt to maintain an open line of communication between now and then will be met with sunshine and rainbows.' Let's call this disingenuous bullshit what it is - management by fear. Don't tell me you're about 'collective problem solving' in an environment where people are constantly fearing for their jobs.

If you aren't afraid of losing your job, you either work for the government or have a strong union.

For the rest of us, setting clear expectations produces the opposite of fear, it gives you confidence in what you are expected to do.

Re: The no excuses culture

#95

Post by sprafa »

mindcrime wrote: post #76
rdlecler1 wrote: post #15

This is an example of a dangerous one-size-fits-all silver bullet philosophy First, this creates selection for a culture that punches below its weight. Never willing to stetch itself. Underperformers apply here. Second, this is fine when you don't have external dependencies who you can't simply fire. You may have to work at the speed of an organization that doesn't share these values and this becomes the rate limitin…

Failure to create a safe work environment can erode trust and make for a toxic and fearful workplace. Having a safe work environment isn't the same thing as not holding people accountable.

No of course not. The whole problem that Steve is talking about here stinks of mismanagement of some sort tho, that isn't really fixed by telling people "stop giving me excuses on delivery day". Something is wrong with the whole organization, but he isn't able to figure it out, so he's telling people to put up or shut up. He's attacking the symptom, not the cause.

Read on the Toyota Production System for alternative solutions.

Re: The no excuses culture

#96

Post by Mz »

derefr wrote: post #87
Mz wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My original example of a kid breaking something and the law coming after the parent was chosen in hopes of not getting into this kind of conversation. It was chosen as something that should be obviously true and not arguable. I try really hard to be careful about talking about parenting because I am aware that I was fortunate to be in a position to insist on no excuses. I was able to be a full time mom, in part becau…

I was trying to intentionally create an example that avoided any case where "vigilance" would have made a difference, but I guess I wasn't clear. I don't know the age of your children, but speaking of them in a general sense (i.e. they'll still be "your child" until they're 18), I presume they will at some point go to a store on their own, take public transit, etc.? That is, they will be out in public without you, if…

My oldest will soon be thirty.

I fundamentally do not agree with you. My sons were raised with real agency and genuine respect from the get go. They did not cave to bullying by adults, even as children. When away from me in public school, they inferred that they were entitled to enforce the standards I had set at home and they were not inclined to take shit off anyone.

This is not an argument you will "win" with me.

Suffice it to say that I acknowledge that I am fortunate to have had latitude and insight that many parents do not have. I try like hell to not blame other parents when they fail and, instead, to empower them to do better. But my children are grown, I know the results of my handiwork and I basically am a kickass parent.

We should probably just end this discussion here. No one ever wants to believe that any parent can meet the standard I consistently set for myself as a parent.

Re: The no excuses culture

#97

Post by valuearb »

watwut wrote: post #78
CalChris wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Similarly, there is no contradiction between right-wing and authoritarianism. We've seen this in Greece, Latin America, ....

Absolutely, I agree. I wrote about left wing, because OP specifically mentioned left wing somehow being incompatible with authoritarianism. I think that only wing incompatible with authoritarianism is pro-democracy crowd.

And libertarian-ism!

Re: The no excuses culture

#98

Post by placebo »

Sorreah wrote: post #37

I don't like that article. I believe that it's entirely backwards actually. If you actually do everything right in your organisation, you'll end up with a "no empty excuses" culture anyway. If you try to enforce a "no excuses" culture without doing all the other things right, then your team is likely suffering and often won't get the chance to express themselves in actually pursuing what they think needs to be done i…

While I agree with everything you wrote about "no excuses" being a side effect of a healthy frame of mind, and that in an ideal situation things should be motivated by passion and not by fear, I wonder if perhaps sometimes the amount of damage created from long exposure to a bad environment is not something that can be easily undone and one has to revert to the stick to achieve results. I wouldn't want to manage or be managed in such an organisation, , but I can imagine there are situations where discipline needs to be enforced when the culture is too far gone due to past mistakes. Using the analogy to human personality, you probably won't fix deep rooted pathologies or self destructive habits overnight by motivation talks. Maybe sometimes things have to be artificially straightened out because the time for a natural fix would just take too long.

Re: The no excuses culture

#99

Post by GuiA »

derefr wrote: post #14
GuiA wrote: post #7

"[Steve] Jobs imagines his garbage regularly not being emptied in his office, and when he asks the janitor why, he gets an excuse: The locks have been changed, and the janitor doesn't have a key. This is an acceptable excuse coming from someone who empties trash bins for a living. The janitor gets to explain why something went wrong. Senior people do not. "When you're the janitor," Jobs has repeatedly told incoming V…

I've heard this from a lot of business-management types, but I've always felt they have the causality backwards. It's not that "reasons don't matter", so therefore you can know your job is now in the executive suite. It's rather that once you're an executive, you are (presumably) granted enough power and authority to actually fix problems on your own initiative, before they become visible to the people above you. So…

> no amount of planning that would have circumlocuted the problem.

You mean "circumvent".

Circumlocution (also called circumduction, circumvolution, periphrasis, or ambage) is locution that circles around a specific idea with multiple words rather than directly evoking it with fewer and apter words.

Re: The no excuses culture

#100

Post by TheOtherHobbes »

eric_b wrote: post #51

I guess I shouldn't be surprised that most people on HN don't like this attitude. I used to think this kind of thing was stupid too. "Oh, management by fiat, that will never work". I see comments here talking about management by fear, or, ironically, making excuses as to why this won't work most places. I've worked in numerous Fortune 500's, and without a doubt the biggest piece missing from the dysfunctional teams i…

This may work, but only if the culture of accountability goes all the way to the top.

It rarely does. It's more usual that once you get past a certain level, the Jobs Rule is reversed. Project failures and corporate problems are mysteriously and inexplicably never caused by bad management or poor executive decisions, and blatant incompetence stops being an impediment to promotion.

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