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CRISPR used to genetically modify viable human embryos for the first time

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Re: CRISPR used to genetically modify viable human embryos for the first time

#81
post #26
post #4

We ethically shouldn't do this. We should not edit human embryos. I can't write 5 pages of why we shouldn't but the fact that we could make the difference between the have and have nots will only get bigger and bigger. Doctor: So do you want the $500 edit to ensure your child won't have diabetes. How about the $2,000 Autism edit? Then the gender change edit is to late to perform. We could do artificial semination and…

There is something significant about humanity no longer being bound by the tyranny of natural selection. We a species who have the power, however limited, to shape the landscape to our will and desire. Now we can also conquer our own biology. To be this is poetic, utopian even.

Or we will exacerbate our worst tendencies and create a nightmare dystopia

Re: CRISPR used to genetically modify viable human embryos for the first time

#83
post #2

These things fascinate me, and it makes me wonder how close we are to the Gattaca-esque ethical debate. All the same, the fact that we're close to gene editing feels like something our of a SciFi book, and I think that's pretty cool.

[Potential Spoilers] The society of Gattaca not only embraced germ-line modification, it also created a caste system around genetic viability. The main character was unable to pursue his chosen field because the society decided that people in that field needed to be genetically tailored for that field.

I think our moves toward creating a more pluralized society, where people that have been historically deemed "genetically inferior" (the disabled, non-white people, trans people, women) have made slow and steady gains, are such that erasing that progress would require more changes to society than simply allowing genetic modification.

Genetic engineering an easy scapegoat, a slippery-slope argument that lets us jump too fast to the dystopic ending of our choice. A storyline that reduces societal, intra-personal progress to individual genetic choices is missing a big chunk of the puzzle.

Re: CRISPR used to genetically modify viable human embryos for the first time

#84
post #4

We ethically shouldn't do this. We should not edit human embryos. I can't write 5 pages of why we shouldn't but the fact that we could make the difference between the have and have nots will only get bigger and bigger. Doctor: So do you want the $500 edit to ensure your child won't have diabetes. How about the $2,000 Autism edit? Then the gender change edit is to late to perform. We could do artificial semination and…

There is a reason why the initial papers are coming out in China. Granted, China's biotech is young and getting better every year, but there is a cottage industry of trials initiated in China due to laxer review and ethical standards there; a trial like this in the US would have taken years of paperwork to clear the FDA.

Granted... the FDA and other pharmas do spend a lot of time, money and manpower to monitor clinical trials in China because eventually, the pharmas attempt to use these trials, conducted "over there" at lesser costs, to get approval for clinical use in the US through the FDA...

Re: CRISPR used to genetically modify viable human embryos for the first time

#86
There are first of all the obvious worries about the impact of genetic engineering. But worse than that is the method described on Radiolab where the genetic changes produce more instances of CRISPR itself so it passes along from generation to generation. But worse than that is the idea of CRISPR being airborne such that it can infect and change all of our genetics. Or the genetics of only some particular targeted subset of the population.

Re: CRISPR used to genetically modify viable human embryos for the first time

#87

There are first of all the obvious worries about the impact of genetic engineering. But worse than that is the method described on Radiolab where the genetic changes produce more instances of CRISPR itself so it passes along from generation to generation. But worse than that is the idea of CRISPR being airborne such that it can infect and change all of our genetics. Or the genetics of only some particular targeted su…

That sort of sounds like a familial prion disease but really - I don't see that as a legit concern. The enzyme is already present in Strep pyogenes which is practically ubiquitous. A lot of us have that same bacteria colonized in our throats.

I never used CRISPR when I worked in a molecular lab, just a TOL2 system which was pretty cool in its own right. But CRISPR needs a DNA probe (probes are attached to CRISPR to target very specific sequences of DNA for editing) and a way to deliver itself into the cell. I didn't read the paper myself, but I'm guessing they just do a little microinjection of CRISPR into the embryo.

And these gene edits for various hemoglobinopathies (G6PD and thalassemia), while impressive, are very simple. These are very specific mutations that when fixed, should yield a normal/working protein and a healthy phenotype.

Re: CRISPR used to genetically modify viable human embryos for the first time

#88

There are first of all the obvious worries about the impact of genetic engineering. But worse than that is the method described on Radiolab where the genetic changes produce more instances of CRISPR itself so it passes along from generation to generation. But worse than that is the idea of CRISPR being airborne such that it can infect and change all of our genetics. Or the genetics of only some particular targeted su…

That sort of sounds like a familial prion disease but really - I don't see that as a legit concern. The enzyme is already present in Strep pyogenes which is practically ubiquitous. A lot of us have that same bacteria colonized in our throats. I never used CRISPR when I worked in a molecular lab, just a TOL2 system which was pretty cool in its own right. But CRISPR needs a DNA probe (probes are attached to CRISPR to t…

Thanks for replying. I'm a layman in this field, so I'm not quite sure about how to parse your response. But wanted to make sure you were aware of the existence of Gene Drive. To me it seems dangerous, but I'd love to hear thoughts from someone more educated in the topic:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CRISPR#Gene_drive

This is the point where my thought process forked off into wondering about the implications if the capabilities of Gene Drive could somehow become airborne.

Re: CRISPR used to genetically modify viable human embryos for the first time

#89
post #4

We ethically shouldn't do this. We should not edit human embryos. I can't write 5 pages of why we shouldn't but the fact that we could make the difference between the have and have nots will only get bigger and bigger. Doctor: So do you want the $500 edit to ensure your child won't have diabetes. How about the $2,000 Autism edit? Then the gender change edit is to late to perform. We could do artificial semination and…

> Doctor: So do you want the $500 edit to ensure your child won't have diabetes. How about the $2,000 Autism edit? Then the gender change edit is to late to perform. We could do artificial semination and guarantee the gender of your child. That's a straight up violation of the Hippocratic oath and blackmail/racketeering combined. We should enforce it strictly, vigilantly, and put doctors who attempt to do this in jai…

> That's a straight up violation of the Hippocratic oath

So is abortion. And, so we're clear, allowing or in any way approving of abortion as a doctor is a far more direct violation of the Hippocratic oath than this is.

> How do you address this with policy? The same way we should be addressing inequality right now.

You mean not at all ?

I've realized though that doctors and pharmaceutical industries don't need to do anything other than save sick patients to make us utterly dependent on genetic modifications. Genetic treatments do not transmit from parent to child. So every parent you treat, the children will need to be treated as well. In some cases all of them, in other cases the chances are simply increased a bit of needing the treatment, which isn't much of a difference.

Even that is ignoring what happens when actual improvements over normal humans become available as genetic treatments. 1% bigger brain ? There is quite a bit of studies that give the impression that on average brain size does correspond to intelligence, even if there are no guarantees in individual cases. It should be an easy change in the DNA to make it a few percent bigger.

So really there's a number of choices we can do:

1) genetic modification is only allowed to be used to cure the sick

This results in the whole population becoming dependent and hostage to genetic modification. Slowly at first. Then, when we learn how to optimize humans, very rapidly.

2) genetic modification is available for parents to create embryos

This actually results in slower dependence: diseases get eliminated, including in the gametes, and any treatment does not need to be repeated in children. Still, improvements will create a class based society.

3) genetic modification is free, and not optional, at least for certain ailments (like vaccines)

This would rapidly eliminate dependence on genetic modification and would be much more fair towards everyone.

Re: CRISPR used to genetically modify viable human embryos for the first time

#90
post #57
post #4

We ethically shouldn't do this. We should not edit human embryos. I can't write 5 pages of why we shouldn't but the fact that we could make the difference between the have and have nots will only get bigger and bigger. Doctor: So do you want the $500 edit to ensure your child won't have diabetes. How about the $2,000 Autism edit? Then the gender change edit is to late to perform. We could do artificial semination and…

Does anyone really want to give birth to a baby with down syndrome?

Not the Danes apparently.

"The number of children born with Down Syndrome (DS) in Denmark has fallen drastically in recent years – so much so that the disorder could be a thing of the past in 30 years.

Since 2004 all pregnant women have been offered a DS scan – called a nuchal scan – and the number of abortions involving DS children has increased dramatically. Last year, 98 percent of pregnant women who were revealed to be carrying an unborn child with DS chose to have an abortion."

http://cphpost.dk/news/down-syndrome-heading-for-extinction-...

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