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CRISPR used to genetically modify viable human embryos for the first time

qz.com

51–60 of 96 posts

Re: CRISPR used to genetically modify viable human embryos for the first time

#51

We are terrified, because we don't know, how to handle it yet. This should not stop us, the humanity. Our descendants will figure it out. There is no progress, if we are afraid of mistakes. The real problem is when we don't learn. Gattaca is a good example, what we should avoid.

Gattaca is a movie filled with terrible science (there is no evidence of a simple gene change for intellectual ability, etc) and characters that are terrible people (NASA today doesn't allow people with heart conditions to go to space, no genetic dystopia required, because having astronauts die in transit is suboptimal to the mission).

I really wish that movie didn't get brought up every time gene therapy makes another advancement.

Re: CRISPR used to genetically modify viable human embryos for the first time

#52
post #14

We are terrified, because we don't know, how to handle it yet. This should not stop us, the humanity. Our descendants will figure it out. There is no progress, if we are afraid of mistakes. The real problem is when we don't learn. Gattaca is a good example, what we should avoid.

FYI: I don't know if English is your first language but you are using commas excessively. All the commas in the first four sentences should be removed and the final comma should be 'of'. EDIT: Also, the second sentence should be "This should not stop us (humanity)."

He's using commas to separate individual clauses of the sentence. Slavic languages do this, and probably some others too.

>This should not stop us, the humanity.

This doesn't seem like something a modern native speaker would say, but it's basically the same thing as in sentences like this:

Montfort was a younger son of Simon de Montfort, 5th Earl of Leicester, a French nobleman and crusader, and Alix de Montmorency.

, 5th Earl of Leicester, is inserted here to clarify meaning, the same way you might insert a group identifier after a we. Perhaps it might seem less out of place if he used it at the beginning of the sentence, like:

We, the humanity, shouldn't let this stop us.

Re: CRISPR used to genetically modify viable human embryos for the first time

#53
post #4

We ethically shouldn't do this. We should not edit human embryos. I can't write 5 pages of why we shouldn't but the fact that we could make the difference between the have and have nots will only get bigger and bigger. Doctor: So do you want the $500 edit to ensure your child won't have diabetes. How about the $2,000 Autism edit? Then the gender change edit is to late to perform. We could do artificial semination and…

Personally, I think we absolutely should. We know of genetic defects that cause disabilities and by leaving them there through deliberate inaction we essentially inflict a disability on a child. We also prevent potential advancement of our species.

Cost is a terrible reason to prohibit this and your argument can be applied to nearly all other medical procedures. They all cost money and sometimes that makes them inaccessible to people who need them. This is a different problem to genetic modification.

As for your article, going through the "cons" section, it mainly raises things that need to be thought about rather than reasons not to do it. My opinions on a few sections:

- "making irreversible changes [to people and] all their descendants would constitute extraordinarily risky human experimentation": The changes are only irreversible to the first generation, the same process that introduced the change can removed it in the offspring. The change being irreversible isn't alone a good reason to prevent it. Again, there's precedent for this in existing medicine. If a limb or organ has to be removed, that certainly isn't reversible. If there's a choice between my child definitely being born with a known defect and a child maybe possibly being born with an unknown one, I'd likely take the latter. However I do believe we should understand things better before we go making frivolous modifications to hair colour and such without understanding the consequences.

- "By definition, germline gene editing would not treat any existing person’s medical needs": You're going to refuse to treat someone simply because they're not born yet? Again, acting through inaction. The same benefits brought by treating infants are brought by treating them before they exist.

- "Would germline gene editing be justifiable, in spite of the risks, for parents who might transmit an inherited disease? It’s certainly not necessary. [...] They can do [PGD] too [...]": PGD and CRISPR differ in process but as I understand it, not in result, so I don't believe you can say one is okay but not the other. As for the other section here suggesting you can use third-party sperm or eggs, yes, you can. It isn't strictly necessary to use gene modification techniques if you're happy having someone else's child but it still amounts to selecting for desirable traits.

- "PGD itself raises social and ethical concerns about what kind of traits should be selected or de-selected. These questions are particularly important from a disability rights perspective (which means they’re important for all of us).": I'm not sure I quite get the disability rights perspective. I believe this only really applies to people who believe that life begins at conception, who would argue that selecting candidates that don't have a disability over ones that do amounts to some kind of genetic genocide. Personally I don't buy that. Why should we leave things to chance when we can give the parents the choice to do what they think best for their child?

- "From a policy perspective, how would we draw the distinction between a medical and enhancement purpose for germline modification? In which category would we put short stature, for example? We know that taller people tend to earn more money. So do people with paler skins. Should arranging for children with financially or socially “efficient” varieties of height and complexion be considered medical intervention?": Again, there's precedent for this in existing medicine. Treatment for things like dwarfism and albinism are covered as medical procedures while treatments for mild sunburn and not being able to reach the top shelf are not.

Ultimately the article raises a lot of things to think about but I don't believe any of them are good reasons not to pursue genetic modifications to humans at all.

Re: CRISPR used to genetically modify viable human embryos for the first time

#54

there's no ethical issue, it's just Vaccination 2.0

There are substantial ethical issues with vaccination as a general thing; there are specific cases where the facts have supporter a fairly broad (though not universal) consensus on the general best approach, but that doesn't change the fact that there are ethical issues in the area of vaccination.

Re: CRISPR used to genetically modify viable human embryos for the first time

#55
post #4

We ethically shouldn't do this. We should not edit human embryos. I can't write 5 pages of why we shouldn't but the fact that we could make the difference between the have and have nots will only get bigger and bigger. Doctor: So do you want the $500 edit to ensure your child won't have diabetes. How about the $2,000 Autism edit? Then the gender change edit is to late to perform. We could do artificial semination and…

Ethics or not, some country will do this, and they'll leave everyone else behind economically in a few generations.

At the risk of being too simplistic, I'd say that Nazi Germany tried doing this, to little avail.

Re: CRISPR used to genetically modify viable human embryos for the first time

#56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sickle-cell anaemia is the ur-example. There will no doubt be others we haven't discovered yet.

Right, even if there are many, would you be able to justify keeping sickle cell? There was even a recent post on HN about it (thought I can't find the same link here's a jist [1]). People will probably benefit from some type of cure as opposed to trying to save mutation that causes extreme discomfort (maybe death). I totally agree with importance of variety but i think it's equally important to understand and revert…

> Right, even if there are many, would you be able to justify keeping sickle cell?

Would you be able to justify eliminating genetic malaria resistance? It's the same allele, of course, heterozygotes get the benefit, homozygotes get the disease.

OTOH, if you can do in vivo editing with appropriate testing, maybe you only edit embryos that would otherwise have the disease, which may marginally reduce the distribution of the allele (in a first order analysis; but if it makes know carriers less unattractive as mates, it might actually increase the distribution), but doesn't eliminate it.

There are lots of issues like this, and overzealous editing could eliminate beneficial traits whose genetic origins we don't understand as side effects of targeting undesirable traits.

Re: CRISPR used to genetically modify viable human embryos for the first time

#57
post #4

We ethically shouldn't do this. We should not edit human embryos. I can't write 5 pages of why we shouldn't but the fact that we could make the difference between the have and have nots will only get bigger and bigger. Doctor: So do you want the $500 edit to ensure your child won't have diabetes. How about the $2,000 Autism edit? Then the gender change edit is to late to perform. We could do artificial semination and…

Does anyone really want to give birth to a baby with down syndrome?

Re: CRISPR used to genetically modify viable human embryos for the first time

#58
post #23
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I'm sure some variant of that will occur at some point, many genetic disorders are relatively simple and well understood. Even if we are still learning, there are dozens of disorders we could eliminate if we had robust genetic editing capability with pretty good odds of success.

"... many genetic disorders are relatively simple and well understood." Are they, really? As far as I know (and I am not a specialist, so someone more qualified may correct me), gene transcription and translation is far from well understood. It's as if we don't have access to the source code for the compiler, only the machine code and the syntax. You can draw correlations and infer causality from your changes, but yo…

It depends.

At one end of the spectrum, Sickle Cell Anemia is caused by a single point mutation. The sixth amino acid in the hemoglobin beta chain should be glutamic acid, but it's been replaced by a valine. These have different charges, which is enough to warp the cell's shape and impair its function.

At the the other extreme, a lot of different gene variants have been associated with autism. However, these tend not to replicate very well--the genes identified in study A don't show up in study B and vice versa, and there are other possible mechanisms, like copy number variants.

CRISPR could potentially fix the former, but the latter is way beyond our current understanding.

Re: CRISPR used to genetically modify viable human embryos for the first time

#59

We are terrified, because we don't know, how to handle it yet. This should not stop us, the humanity. Our descendants will figure it out. There is no progress, if we are afraid of mistakes. The real problem is when we don't learn. Gattaca is a good example, what we should avoid.

Gattaca is a movie filled with terrible science (there is no evidence of a simple gene change for intellectual ability, etc) and characters that are terrible people (NASA today doesn't allow people with heart conditions to go to space, no genetic dystopia required, because having astronauts die in transit is suboptimal to the mission). I really wish that movie didn't get brought up every time gene therapy makes anoth…

I thought in Gattaca they manipulated multiple embryos and let the couple choose the one with the most desired characteristics? I don't recall any mention of single genes doing anything, just embryonic manipulation. The main character was a natural birth, so he didn't benefit from a selection/manipulation process, and thus was born with less optimal genes.

Re: CRISPR used to genetically modify viable human embryos for the first time

#60

there's no ethical issue, it's just Vaccination 2.0

The real ethical concerns are what lies beyond just removing nasty inheritable diseases, which is the possibility for designer babies. But also the possibility for weaponizing CRISPR, either to create nasty viruses, or make a gene editing weapon. But beyond all that, it's the worry that a few people get to make a decision that will impact the genes of future generations. And with a gene drive, you could guarantee that all descendants would have the desired modification.
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