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Mirror grinding

scopemaking.net

21–30 of 66 posts

Re: Mirror grinding

#21

My parents run a business making telescope mirrors, and I grew up around this exact process. Measurement is the biggest difference between this and what they do. Take a look at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interferometry#Engineering_and... if you want to know more about how it's done in industry. The best metaphor I got from them about how precise a shape they make in glass is that if you took a typical 1 meter mirr…

I'd imagine the math to be off-the-charts complicated, but I'm interested in the signal processing software people have created for correcting optical aberration (and how effective it is). I believe they pioneered this technology for the hubble's mirror defect. If it's effective, then manufacturers could reduce costs by not even needing to try for perfection, just staying within the limits of what software can fix.

Yeah this is an interesting area of research - I think the term you're looking for is deconvolution. Here's a document about some of the work done for Hubble in this regard (large PDF): http://www.stsci.edu/hst/HST_overview/documents/Restorationo...

However, my understanding is that you can improve things but you can't "truly" correct it, generally speaking, because the optical aberration causes information to be lost. eg. if point A on your mirror focuses to point A' on the resulting image, and point B on your mirror, due to an aberration, also focuses to A', there's no way to determine from the image which point on the mirror a photon came from.

This is why Hubble eventually needed a hardware fix... from the linked paper: "it is clear that many image restoration methods are highly successful at deriving images that 'look good' from HST data. These restored images may be qualitatively faithful to the true (unknown) image. However, for most astronomical purposes qualitative agreement with reality is not sufficient; we want quantitative agreement as well."

Re: Mirror grinding

#22
A much more extensive guide is at Stellafane:

http://stellafane.org/tm/

Keep in mind this is a long term project. If you're looking for something to do with your hands, a physical object in the real world, that would keep you busy for months (assuming you're not working on it full time) - you've found it.

Keep at it and you'll make a very high quality instrument. My first parabolic mirror came out at lambda/25 precision (and no ripples, no turned edge), whereas many commercial mirrors are only lambda/4 or 6 and the edge is sometimes questionable.

As for the instrument itself (everything except the optics), it's not much harder than making a simple cabinet, and in some ways it's easier. Go slow, read a lot, think ahead, and you'll succeed.

Re: Mirror grinding

#23

I don't really understand how a perfect shape can come out of that process. Can someone explain how it's a product of the grinding technique?

The extraordinary precision (under 0.1 microns) is only possible because the surface is close to a sphere; when grinding two surfaces together uniformly in all directions, the result tends towards a sphere (or a flat shape, which is a sphere of infinite radius). If you had to make an arbitrary shape, things would be very different.

If there's a bump (a hill) on the surface, it tends to grind out more quickly than the rest because it's jutting out and it's more exposed to pressure from the grit. If there's a hole, it remains untouched while the surface around it is being ground down. This way everything tends towards the ideal shape. By carefully doing a uniform rotation of the pieces during grinding, the resulting shape is symmetrical - spherical or flat.

Other shapes are also used in mirrors (revolution surfaces generated by a parabola, hyperbola or ellipse), but they are all basically just small corrections to a sphere (which is a revolution surface generated by a circle).

You start with very rough grit to go faster in the beginning and remove most material. Then you just use finer and finer grit as the surface becomes more and more smooth.

In the final stages you switch to polishing. It's a different process where the tool is not hard (glass) but soft (pitch), and the grit is replaced with microscopic powders (such as iron oxide or cerium oxide) which work not only through physical mechanisms but also via surface chemistry.

Also during polishing you use testing procedures which can show surface errors as small as 0.02 microns. The testing process is steering your polishing techniques; you apply corrections, or choose different polishing strokes to deal with various surface errors. Whereas grinding is mostly automatic (with a few basic checks here and there), during polishing your brain is in the loop, a lot.

Re: Mirror grinding

#24

I don't really understand how a perfect shape can come out of that process. Can someone explain how it's a product of the grinding technique?

Depends on what you mean by perfect. its very precise, but I'm sure if you examined the surface with an electron microscope you'd still see imperfections. Edit: was incorrect about what I said below. Leaving it for posterity It's important to remember that the final surface - the one that actually reflects photons - is created chemically by releasing a gas inside a vacuum that very evenly coats the surface with refle…

No, it's not needed. Nanometers don't matter, that's the atomic level, far below what visible light could resolve. The metallic coating doesn't change the shape.

Once you're below 20 nanometers it basically doesn't matter. The wavelength of visible light is on the order of 400 nanometers.

In a different universe where the wavelength of visible light would be comparable to, or smaller than, the size of atoms, it would be very hard to make mirrors.

Source: I make telescope mirrors.

Re: Mirror grinding

#25

How is the curvature of the mirror measured during manufacturing? It's obvious that the mirrors require extreme precision in order to function correctly.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spherometer

Spherometers are only used during the initial stages. Towards the end you switch to optical testing.

Re: Mirror grinding

#26

I know a few keen amateur astronomers who make extra cash by producing astronomical equipment for other amateurs. Some of them are very skilled, and could probably start a fully-fledged business if they wanted to, but they prefer to keep it as a hobby. I paid one guy $400 to build me an equatorial platform for my 12-inch Dob. The value it provides me is way higher than the financial cost, and he could probably charge…

It's a very small market. And at the higher volume lower end (cheap scopes for newbies) you can't compete with chinese mass production.

> An equatorial platform eliminates this weakness, and I strongly recommend one

Agreed. You own a dob, just get a platform already. It's even useful for astrophotography.

Re: Mirror grinding

#28

I know a few keen amateur astronomers who make extra cash by producing astronomical equipment for other amateurs. Some of them are very skilled, and could probably start a fully-fledged business if they wanted to, but they prefer to keep it as a hobby. I paid one guy $400 to build me an equatorial platform for my 12-inch Dob. The value it provides me is way higher than the financial cost, and he could probably charge…

The larger the mirror the more you'll need it.

Re: Mirror grinding

#30

My parents run a business making telescope mirrors, and I grew up around this exact process. Measurement is the biggest difference between this and what they do. Take a look at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interferometry#Engineering_and... if you want to know more about how it's done in industry. The best metaphor I got from them about how precise a shape they make in glass is that if you took a typical 1 meter mirr…

I'd love to grind my own mirror, but are there health concerns with the fine powder for the skin and respiratory systems?
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