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Why Women Don’t Apply for Jobs Unless They’re 100% Qualified (2014)

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Re: Why Women Don’t Apply for Jobs Unless They’re 100% Qualified (2014)

#111
post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where we disagree is probably in using the language of "privilege" and related concepts. I see no point to it, and it's probably harmful in the long run. It's imprecise (typically dealing only with vague averages), ignores detriments, ignores privileges when they imply the existence of detriments (i.e. there is certainly female privilege, but it is often ignored because that implies that some male privilege could be…

Do you have any suggestions for how to communicate this stuff better? I certainly understand objections to a slogan like "equal pay for equal work" or "check your privilege" or whatever, but I also understand that there are real issues affecting millions of people and discussing statistical nuances is probably not the most efficient way to solve them. I'm not trying to be snarky, I'm honestly wondering if you've seen…

If the goal is communication and truth-seeking, communicating and arguing through logos and ethos work better than through pathos, so try to move things in that direction if you can, personally I just try to not produce emotional discourse in the first place and try to not engage with it when I see it.

For logos, the parties involved need to understand statistical nuances and basic probability theory if they hope to use data and studies as evidence of anything in a serious manner, otherwise they're just using someone else's authority -- which isn't necessarily bad but it's important to know yourself when you have understood at least some of the details and can see the logic yourself versus taking the study authors' word for it, or worse the media's representation of it. Brighter folks should especially understand that deductive fallacies are not necessarily probabilistic fallacies (often they can be turned to probabilistic theorems) so that discussions can flow without someone raising a fallacy and declaring victory, ruining the conversation. Another important skill is the ability to assume the other side is right, or to assume their solution is implemented, and work through what you think the consequences are, the state-changes to the world, and see if you can find something that isn't desired or perhaps to your surprise cannot find anything really distasteful. This requires a solution to be sufficiently detailed, which is also helpful -- something to help clarification is to taboo words. When I see someone use 'fascist' in any context I just replace it with 'bad'; if I were actually arguing with them I'd ask them to taboo the word 'fascist' and describe their thing without that word. In tech I've seen some PMs throw around "machine learning" like it's some seasoning that can be applied to create their product, the engineers end up having to taboo "ML" in order to figure out what exactly they're implementing in order to do what.

Ethos is important because it will clarify everyone's relative personal experience, and if it's clear that's what is being done then we can stave off remarks like "anecdotes aren't data!" Similarly it can clarify people's moral perspectives. I don't find anything wrong with having vastly less (or even vastly more were that the case) women in STEM than men, knowing that you could avoid certain lines of argument and pursue others in some related discussion, but more importantly a conversation to tease out moral views lets each party know what the other considers a real issue or not and the level of urgency perceived. It would also be useful to try working out moral consequences to various actions. If you could implement some policy that would seem to benefit the welfare of ice rink sweepers everywhere right now, you might do it, but what if you had evidence from the future that the welfare of ice rink sweepers had actually decreased pretty steadily in the decades since the policy was introduced? Did you work through consequences, logical and ethical, out to at least one generation? (I always thought the Iroquois' seven generations was a bit excessive...)

If the goal is efficiently solving what you see are the big problems, you need to have power to implement a solution or influence over someone who does. You're mostly wasting time talking to small fry like me on the internet. Even if they might help come up with solutions, everyone's got solutions to things already, even if most of them won't work. But no matter, if you think you have a shot at fixing your issues, you need the ability to do the fix, even if you aren't confident what your fix is yet. Arguing through pathos works very well to get a large mass of people on your side, and having a large mass of people on your side is an effective way to get and use power. Then you either implement what you think is good or take some time to talk to the rational folks about what the best solution is and implement that. (Case study: Trump.)

Re: Why Women Don’t Apply for Jobs Unless They’re 100% Qualified (2014)

#112
post #30
post #3

Anecdotal evidence. I used to feel more strongly of the 100% qualified and I know many other men who have as well. There was a point in college that I didn't apply for a scholarship because I didn't have the 3.0 GPA requirement at the time, I had like a 2.95 About 7 months later I found out that a student with a 2.2 GPA had received the scholarship because so few people had applied, they were able to give them to eve…

In many pursuits, from romantic to professional, let those in charge of choosing make the decision, don't decide for them. As the saying goes, fortune favors the bold.

Even in the trivial. Whenever some cashier asks me if I have a coupon, I say, "No, but you can give me one if you want". It pays off enough to be worth the ten seconds it takes to say.

Re: Why Women Don’t Apply for Jobs Unless They’re 100% Qualified (2014)

#113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Aren't many tech companies eager to improve the gender ratio, and thus lowering the bar for women hires?

Is there any evidence to back up that claim?

I only know anecdotal one, from people working at Google.

Re: Why Women Don’t Apply for Jobs Unless They’re 100% Qualified (2014)

#114
post #95
post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The "old boy network" isn't just literally about knowing the other "old boys" (though that's obviously important), it's about a shared understanding of how things actually work, as opposed to how the publicly-exposed information says things work. So just networking with people isn't enough--you need to know the unspoken reality of how to make further progress. (This from someone who has painfully learned not to take…

I agree. But in a predominantly heterosexual world, simply being female makes it hard to access that info. Many of the men who have that knowledge only want to talk to me in order to determine if I will sleep with them. (So if they are faithfully married, they may just not want to talk to me.) That's a genuine barrier to gaining that knowledge. But I have found it helpful to focus on finding a way to get access to th…

My comment wasn't directed at you, but at people who seem to feel that simply exposing someone to the literal subject matter of an industry, whatever it might be ("Learn to code!" "Get an MBA!" etc.), is sufficient to bring them in.

In reality the "in" crowd can't just do that, pat itself on the back for being so "inclusive" this week, and continue with business as usual. Overcoming unconscious cultural biases to actually bring people into the "success network" requires a lot more commitment than that.

The good news is, some people are really trying. But there are still plenty of people who are too lazy, don't understand the problem, or don't care.

Re: Why Women Don’t Apply for Jobs Unless They’re 100% Qualified (2014)

#115
post #114
post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree. But in a predominantly heterosexual world, simply being female makes it hard to access that info. Many of the men who have that knowledge only want to talk to me in order to determine if I will sleep with them. (So if they are faithfully married, they may just not want to talk to me.) That's a genuine barrier to gaining that knowledge. But I have found it helpful to focus on finding a way to get access to th…

My comment wasn't directed at you, but at people who seem to feel that simply exposing someone to the literal subject matter of an industry, whatever it might be ("Learn to code!" "Get an MBA!" etc.), is sufficient to bring them in. In reality the "in" crowd can't just do that, pat itself on the back for being so "inclusive" this week, and continue with business as usual. Overcoming unconscious cultural biases to act…

I thought it was a good comment. I think both of your comments here are good. I was just conversing, not rebutting, defending nor arguing.

Re: Why Women Don’t Apply for Jobs Unless They’re 100% Qualified (2014)

#116

You realize there's actually a severe gender imbalance in tech and most high paying careers, right? You realize you are privileged, in so many ways, whether or not you want to recognize it, right?

Would you please not take HN threads on generic tangents? That, combined with combative snark, guarantees an unproductive flamewar. The issues are important and deserve thoughtful discussion from personal experience. When you post like this, you make that impossible in exchange for scoring ideological points—a bad trade.

We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13832368 and marked it off-topic.

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