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Is It Better to Be Poor in Bangladesh or the Mississippi Delta?

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Re: Is It Better to Be Poor in Bangladesh or the Mississippi Delta?

#51

Post by 234dd57d2c8dba »

exolymph wrote: post #41
rtx wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would you sympathise with someone who blames his problems on slavery?

The distinction is that slavery is actually bad — a human rights atrocity with centuries of fallout — whereas globalization is (according to the liberal worldview ) good. I mostly share the liberal worldview.

Globalism is just another form of slavery, to corporations and global government. There might not be iron chains, but it's still all about control and power. Unaccountable bureaucrats pulling strings on everything from what your money is worth to restricting information from you about where your food is grown.

Re: Is It Better to Be Poor in Bangladesh or the Mississippi Delta?

#52

Post by rayiner »

infosample wrote: post #48
noobiemcfoob wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Much of the same can be said of impoverished inner city citizens. It's human nature to find external causes to your pains outside of your control. There's a double annoyance with inner city residents, though, in that many just expect the government to solve the problems, leaving them without motivation. Almost robbing them of it in some cases. Anyone working hard towards their dreams, no matter how large or small, wi…

It's hard to tell if you are making a counterargument to the parent or if you believe inner city residents[0] expect government to solve their problems, lack motivation, and don't work hard. [0] Do the people you are referring to actually live in the inner city?

Have you ever lived in the "inner city"?

Re: Is It Better to Be Poor in Bangladesh or the Mississippi Delta?

#53

Post by Decade »

charles-salvia wrote: post #23

I think a lot of the resentment felt by the rural American poor has to do with their perception that they are constantly ignored or overlooked, while similarly impoverished inner-city minorities are at least given some kind of institutional sympathy. It's hard to say how true this really is, or how much of it is simply further fuel for pre-existing racism, but apparently this perception is ubiquitous enough that it c…

Some of the resentment is because cities are no longer aspirational. In the old days, if you are unhappy with your life, then you move to the city and make a new life. These days, you can’t even imagine moving to the city, because one month of rent will wipe out years of savings.

http://idiosyncraticwhisk.blogspot.com/2015/11/housing-serie...

https://medium.com/@laurafooteclark/how-do-we-avoid-another-...

Re: Is It Better to Be Poor in Bangladesh or the Mississippi Delta?

#54

Post by pizzetta »

chimeracoder wrote: post #17
thrownblown wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does Bangladesh have a systemic prescription opiate problem? How about an illegal heroin problem?

> Does Bangladesh have a systemic prescription opiate problem? If you want to talk about the impact of opiates on Bangladeshi poverty today, you should go back much further in history. Bengal opium, being much higher quality than the product found in China and Afghanistan, was the major impetus behind the British annexing the territory back in 1757. They used this monopoly to extract exorbitant taxes from Bengal, cau…

I think Appalachian malaise predates the opiate problem. I think it would be worthwhile investigating the cultural aspects which allow an extremely poor population in a poor country fare better than a merely poor population in a developed country where some aspects of lives are subsidized by commonwealth.

Re: Is It Better to Be Poor in Bangladesh or the Mississippi Delta?

#55

Post by geodel »

divbit wrote: post #24
solutionyogi wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am originally from India and yummyfajitas's (Regular HNer) experience is very representative. https://www.chrisstucchio.com/blog/2015/medical_tourism.html

That's interesting. Some of my family in the US have done similar medical tourism in Slovakia.

It would be risky to rely on this single story. I have heard directly from 2 friends both have parents based in India hospitalized there. Once doctors got hint that people from US are coming to take care, medical bills skyrocketed. One colleague end up spending 15 lakh (USD 25K) as hospital would refuse to release body of his father and issue death certificate. They keep claiming patient is critical and need ICU.

With other friends' mother doctors would keep ordering injections, each worth 20,000 Rs ($300) confident in the fact US based son can surely afford it. In the end he ended up spending about $35-40K for about 2 weeks of treatment which ended with mother's death.

Medical council is in cahoots with doctors and hospitals. If anyone has grievance they can spend years in courts before they see any justice about medical malpractice.

Re: Is It Better to Be Poor in Bangladesh or the Mississippi Delta?

#56

Post by nafizh »

I am a Bangladeshi who is now a grad student in US. Perhaps I can give a generalized peek view of the health system of Bangladesh. I feel much more safe being in Bangladesh if I were to have some urgent/serious health problems. There are public hospitals where doctors are always available. You go and buy a ticket which is very cheap(in the order of 1-2 dollars in BD currency) and you get to see a doctor. Sure, there are lots of people, you might have to wait for 2 hours, but it beats the insurance system here in US any day. In fact, the concept of having a health insurance is so alien in BD that I feel there will be riots if someone wanted to introduce that. Also, the quality of the doctors in the public hospital is almost on par with the private hospitals. Because for any up and coming doctor, if they want to gain recognition, they first have to get a job at a public hospital. Then they may also practice at a private hospital at their extra hours. If you do not want to wait and you have the money(which is in the order of 10 dollars in BD currecy) you can visit the same doctor at a private hospital. Medicines are really cheap mostly too. This is one of the reasons many Bangladeshi green card holders or US citizens would go to BD for health care if they have some serious issues. I feel there is a huge cultural difference regarding the solution of healthcare between US and BD. The public in BD expects the government to take care of its people through public hospitals. That is why when I came to US and got acquainted with the system of healthcare here it was a huge shock to me.

Re: Is It Better to Be Poor in Bangladesh or the Mississippi Delta?

#57

Post by bufordsharkley »

empath75 wrote: post #12

I noticed when traveling through Central America, that while extreme poverty is everywhere, homelessness seems to be quite rare (with the caveat that I didn't spend much time in the capital cities, so the situation there may be different). I think there are two reasons for it: 1) People don't seem to be as mobile, in general, and you'll find 3 generations of family living very close to each other quite often. I was h…

This phenomenon is what drove Henry George to write "Progress and Poverty," nearly 140 years ago. To quote from the introduction:

> But just as such a community realizes the conditions which all civilized communities are striving for, and advances in the scale of material progress—just as closer settlement and a more intimate connection with the rest of the world, and greater utilization of labor-saving machinery, make possible greater economies in production and exchange, and wealth in consequence increases, not merely in the aggregate, but in proportion to population—so does poverty take a darker aspect. Some get an infinitely better and easier living, but others find it hard to get a living at all. The "tramp" comes with the locomotive, and almshouses and prisons are as surely the marks of "material progress" as are costly dwellings, rich warehouses, and magnificent churches. Upon streets lighted with gas and patrolled by uniformed policemen, beggars wait for the passer-by, and in the shadow of college, and library, and museum, are gathering the more hideous Huns and fiercer Vandals of whom Macaulay prophesied.

He identified the reason for it as being the higher value of scarce lands in the midst of progress, and the tendency of private ownership in land to make this inevitable. To take your example from (2) ― if the land on the side of the road demanded great payments for its use, good luck building a shelter there. (This goes hand-in-hand with zoning laws, one of the tools wielded by the landowning class, but which didn't exist in George's day.)

[0] http://www.econlib.org/library/YPDBooks/George/grgPP1.html

Re: Is It Better to Be Poor in Bangladesh or the Mississippi Delta?

#58

Post by jwhitlark »

gmarx wrote: post #29
mmsimanga wrote: post #18

I was born in an African village, literally in a mud hut. I spent the first 9 years of my life in a village. The town I grew up in wasn't far from the village so I spent holidays in the village too. I now work in IT and try keep up with the latest frameworks. That is I am not concerned with starving to death and I have health insurance. If I compare my upbringing with my daughter's, there is nothing to compare. We wa…

Funny (ironic?) thing is that each incremental advance in civilization may be a good thing in isolation and, given the choice between adding benefit X to their existing situation or not, most people would choose adding benefit X without hesitation. And yet, somehow the sum of hundreds of such benefits (secure food, healthcare, fire departments, internet) doesn't lead to a significant increase in average happiness. In…

When humans come into conflict, and they always do, it's not happiness that decides the winner, it's power. The societies that exist today are the ones that survived, not the ones that are best for their constituents.

Re: Is It Better to Be Poor in Bangladesh or the Mississippi Delta?

#59

Post by mmsimanga »

gmarx wrote: post #29
mmsimanga wrote: post #18

I was born in an African village, literally in a mud hut. I spent the first 9 years of my life in a village. The town I grew up in wasn't far from the village so I spent holidays in the village too. I now work in IT and try keep up with the latest frameworks. That is I am not concerned with starving to death and I have health insurance. If I compare my upbringing with my daughter's, there is nothing to compare. We wa…

Funny (ironic?) thing is that each incremental advance in civilization may be a good thing in isolation and, given the choice between adding benefit X to their existing situation or not, most people would choose adding benefit X without hesitation. And yet, somehow the sum of hundreds of such benefits (secure food, healthcare, fire departments, internet) doesn't lead to a significant increase in average happiness. In…

I think about this a lot. One of my own theories is that we always want more. A columnist here, South Africa wrote about how when he was in high school he just wanted enough money to take his date to a movie and have enough money to buy popcorn. In college, he wanted enough money to buy a crate of beer, as a young employee he wanted enough to buy the cool car. Get the drift, somehow we always want more.

People in the village are not immune from wanting more but the pace is slower. They are more patient. They exercise, not by going to gym but walking 10km to say hello to a neighbor then walking back. Food is organic, all cows eat grass and roam free. Little of the food is highly processed. They also manually process their food. The thought of spending half a day pounding millet for supper has me getting so impatient and thinking surely there is a better way. They have accepted.

Sorry I went on a bit of a rant, but this is topic close to my heart.

Re: Is It Better to Be Poor in Bangladesh or the Mississippi Delta?

#60

Post by noobiemcfoob »

infosample wrote: post #48
noobiemcfoob wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Much of the same can be said of impoverished inner city citizens. It's human nature to find external causes to your pains outside of your control. There's a double annoyance with inner city residents, though, in that many just expect the government to solve the problems, leaving them without motivation. Almost robbing them of it in some cases. Anyone working hard towards their dreams, no matter how large or small, wi…

It's hard to tell if you are making a counterargument to the parent or if you believe inner city residents[0] expect government to solve their problems, lack motivation, and don't work hard. [0] Do the people you are referring to actually live in the inner city?

A little of both, but I'm mostly commenting on the "The thing I've noticed is that it actually is harder to sympathize with the white, rural poor" sentiment. Namely to say that the reasons listed for not sympathizing with the rural poor can and often are applied the same to the urban poor. Going further, urban poor have a stigma of being assisted by the government. It's an odd situation because at the same time that there is resentment for the urban poor receiving more government programs, there's more popular will to help the urban poor. I imagine it's largely a visibility problem.

Sweeping generalizations are sweeping. And general. I don't believe all poor people, regardless of residence, lack motivation or are just looking for handouts. If pressed, I'd probably guess no more than 10% of the poor population would fairly deserve those insults. But, you could probably say only 10% of the global population might deserve those insults.

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