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As obesity keeps rising, more Americans are just giving up

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Re: As obesity keeps rising, more Americans are just giving up

#31

Post by quotemstr »

lacampbell wrote: post #17
quotemstr wrote: post #8

Is it really in the best interest of society to allow food makers to advertise superstimuli-level [1] food products that we know in aggregate make is less happy and likely to die earlier? Why? We regulate all sorts of substances that we know are harmful when ingested. We shouldn't make exceptions for things that happen to be called food. Even if we don't want to enact anything as drastic as a "soda tax" or a ban on r…

At what point do people take responsibility for their own bodies and their own lives? We all know the secret to not being obese. Asking the government to step in and help us just seems... childish. Are we not adults? Do we have no agency?

> At what point do people take responsibility for their own bodies and their own lives?

This question touches on some very deep and controversial ideas kicking around in the current conversation. The question of whether we have an inherent "human nature", a biological substrate that informs our capabilities and behavior, touches on everything from education to tech employment. I don't want to debate the subject generally.

But can we agree, for the specific case of food consumption that

1) we have very strong impulses that are difficult to consciously resist; that

2) these impulses originate in biology; that

3) the existence of exceptional willpower is a mark of exceptional self-discipline, a level not practical to achieve for most; and that

4) advertisers prey on the difficulty most people experience in controlling their food behavior?

Re: As obesity keeps rising, more Americans are just giving up

#32

Post by quotemstr »

zitterbewegung wrote: post #18
lacampbell wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At what point do people take responsibility for their own bodies and their own lives? We all know the secret to not being obese. Asking the government to step in and help us just seems... childish. Are we not adults? Do we have no agency?

There is a genetic component to being overweight that you are overlooking. It's not just eating less .

You're correct about there being a genetic component to obesity. Unfortunately, it's also the case that it is just "eating less" --- physics has no special case for 21st century humans. The way to square this circle, and what's particularly difficult for people in this society, is to accept that that there is a genetic component to this behavioral issue.

We'd prefer very much going around believing that behavior is somehow disjoint from genetics. That just isn't true, and as long we continue believing it's true, we're going to make bad public policy.

Re: As obesity keeps rising, more Americans are just giving up

#33

Post by TezlaKoil »

devoply wrote: post #5
Neliquat wrote: post #4

Until this is treated like the public epidemic it is, and promote education, this will only get worse. Calories in - calories out = fat accumulation. It is literally that simple.

Education does not work. Mexico has shown that regulation does work, they regulated sugar which has had a positive effect on health. The food industry needs to be regulated. The few conglomerates are engineering unhealthy people. It's that simple. There is very little actual food choice because the market optimizes for profits, not for health. In order to give health a fighting chance you need to regulate the market…

> There is very little actual food choice because the market optimizes for profits, not for health.

Hold on! The market consists of both suppliers and customer. One would think that being fat is not profitable for the latter. Meanwhile, only 3% of Japanese people have a BMI over 30, while 32% of Americans do. It must be that Japanese markets don't optimize for profit! Or maybe you got the source of the problem wrong. Guess which one I think it is.

> Mexico has shown that regulation does work, they regulated sugar which has had a positive effect on health.

Hungary has a higher sugar tax, had it for a longer time, and it appears to have no effect on health at all. Go figure.

Re: As obesity keeps rising, more Americans are just giving up

#34

Post by jahewson »

lacampbell wrote: post #17
quotemstr wrote: post #8

Is it really in the best interest of society to allow food makers to advertise superstimuli-level [1] food products that we know in aggregate make is less happy and likely to die earlier? Why? We regulate all sorts of substances that we know are harmful when ingested. We shouldn't make exceptions for things that happen to be called food. Even if we don't want to enact anything as drastic as a "soda tax" or a ban on r…

At what point do people take responsibility for their own bodies and their own lives? We all know the secret to not being obese. Asking the government to step in and help us just seems... childish. Are we not adults? Do we have no agency?

I think as a society it is pretty clear that we do not know the secret to not being obese. I can't count how many times a day I am bombarded with messages telling me to eat junk food, that it's fine, it's fun. People do not live in a vacuum and can't be judged too harshly for choosing the options that society has worked very hard to place in front of them and promote. It's simple psychology that when faced with sizes such as small, medium, large, giant, extra giant, then people stop choosing small. Should we accept personal blame for our innate cognitive biases? No, of course not. What we should do as a society is stop manipulating people into making choices which ultimately harm them.

Re: As obesity keeps rising, more Americans are just giving up

#35

Post by costcopizza »

minikites wrote: post #21
BadassFractal wrote: post #13

I haven't really paid attention to men's physiques, but there's a stark difference between the silhouettes of women in many cities of Europe and those in even the most "superficial" US states such as California. I know the PC police will eat me for lunch for saying this, but the dating pool, at least in the 20s and 30s range, shrinks considerably in the US for anybody used to European body image standards. Whatever's…

One of the more plausible (to an uneducated person like me) theories I've seen in a few places is that we've bred food (both plants and animals) for size and pest/disease/shipping durability at the direct expense of flavor. Flavor is a key signal for nutrition, so our brain goes "not enough nutrients, eat more to get them!" Here's a Vox review/summary of a book: http://www.vox.com/2015/7/30/9070255/dorito-effect > Fl…

Also, grains used to be a decent source of Omega 3's until we (over the course of many generations) selectively bred for sweetness.

Re: As obesity keeps rising, more Americans are just giving up

#36

Post by lacampbell »

minikites wrote: post #25
lacampbell wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At what point do people take responsibility for their own bodies and their own lives? We all know the secret to not being obese. Asking the government to step in and help us just seems... childish. Are we not adults? Do we have no agency?

It's not childish, it's how a society works. It's the same concept behind seatbelt laws. Not wearing a seatbelt "should" be an individual choice but individuals not wearing a seatbelt in aggregate is a net negative for society so we legislate their use.

I think wearing a seatbelt is a great idea, and if I'll refuse to drive a car unless all my passengers are wearing their seatbelt first. My partner is from a country where it's not enforced at all, and I have insisted she always wear a seat-belt when I noticed she didn't wear them routinely.

I personally rarely drink alcohol, don't smoke, take drugs etc etc. I still don't think any of the above should be forbidden. I've found it's a good idea to me - cheaper, better for my health, better for my mental state. Somehow I'm able to follow this without the state compelling me to do so.

Should we ban alcohol as well - as that is how "society works"? It does a lot of harm in many countries.

I don't understand why every good idea has to be enforced with a law.

(As an aside, I'm from a country where bicycle helmets are mandatory, despite their dubious safety benefits, and the fact as soon as the law was introduced cyclist numbers plummeted).

Re: As obesity keeps rising, more Americans are just giving up

#37

Post by xg15 »

lacampbell wrote: post #17
quotemstr wrote: post #8

Is it really in the best interest of society to allow food makers to advertise superstimuli-level [1] food products that we know in aggregate make is less happy and likely to die earlier? Why? We regulate all sorts of substances that we know are harmful when ingested. We shouldn't make exceptions for things that happen to be called food. Even if we don't want to enact anything as drastic as a "soda tax" or a ban on r…

At what point do people take responsibility for their own bodies and their own lives? We all know the secret to not being obese. Asking the government to step in and help us just seems... childish. Are we not adults? Do we have no agency?

How about the point where you don't build a multi-billion dollar industry based on undermining exactly that kind of agency and body responsibility?

Re: As obesity keeps rising, more Americans are just giving up

#39

Post by aplomb »

We're at a point where there is so much technological, cultural, malicious disruption that people don't know how to live anymore and are trying to find their way on the fly or based on some diet/lifestyle du jour.

Yes personal responsibility and all, but we've made it awful easy to fall into this trap.

Re: As obesity keeps rising, more Americans are just giving up

#40

Post by sethammons »

DoodleBuggy wrote: post #9

Is this really different from smoking or another harmful unhealthy lifestyle choice? It's abusing food, and it has negative consequences. The cost of health care to manage obesity and related issues is staggering and will only increase. Maybe the USA should start having a BMI tax?

BMI is not always a valid gauge. It does not take into account above average muscle mass. My BMI says that I am obese. I have, maybe, 20 extra pounds on me. If I lost that, I would be abs-in-your-face shredded (or very near it).
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