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Show HN: Websites and Apps Built Without a Single Line of Code

builtwithoutcode.com

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Re: Show HN: Websites and Apps Built Without a Single Line of Code

#21

Post by beaconstudios »

startupdiscuss wrote: post #20
beaconstudios wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

hi, I'm working on something similar to Bubble myself - what makes you say that you want such a tool to generate open source code?

Well, the big issue with any of these is that you invariably find yourself needing that one feature so badly. "Here is your site!" "Great, let's add authentication." "Cool, do you want to login with Google, Twitter or Facebook?" "Github..." "Ooh, add it to the list..." And then you're waiting. This doesn't just happen once, it happens constantly on all kinds of things you need. This way you can go in and change it ar…

oh hey, I just realised it was you - I tweeted you about getting in touch previously.

Yeah this is a big focal point for v1 - providing an avenue for developers to write in any features that aren't natively provided in the editor. I'm currently playing around with a "code view" that shows you the compiled, unminified version of whichever component you're working on and allows you to modify it directly. The plan is to save those modifications as a diff that can be re-integrated when the component is built. Obviously it's not quite as simple as that but my hope is that the editor will be able to gradually add new workflows for missing features but without constraining developers.

Re: Show HN: Websites and Apps Built Without a Single Line of Code

#22

Post by startupdiscuss »

beaconstudios wrote: post #21
startupdiscuss wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, the big issue with any of these is that you invariably find yourself needing that one feature so badly. "Here is your site!" "Great, let's add authentication." "Cool, do you want to login with Google, Twitter or Facebook?" "Github..." "Ooh, add it to the list..." And then you're waiting. This doesn't just happen once, it happens constantly on all kinds of things you need. This way you can go in and change it ar…

oh hey, I just realised it was you - I tweeted you about getting in touch previously. Yeah this is a big focal point for v1 - providing an avenue for developers to write in any features that aren't natively provided in the editor. I'm currently playing around with a "code view" that shows you the compiled, unminified version of whichever component you're working on and allows you to modify it directly. The plan is to…

Looking forward to playing with it.

One thing everyone wants to avoid is lockin. I have the feeling now that if AWS raises prices, I can go to Azure. If Postgres adds some new RestFul feature, I can switch to it.

If I have to use your solution for the long term, and you are charging for it (which, of course, you should), I don't want to be bound to that solution forever. What if you sell the service and the buyer shuts it down?

Re: Show HN: Websites and Apps Built Without a Single Line of Code

#23

Post by fiatjaf »

I don't know if this makes sense, but I imagine a "visual website builder" that works with components, like React Components.

Each visual part of the site, in each page, has a component. That component may be just static text or image, or it can run code before rendering something.

That should be enough to start.

Re: Show HN: Websites and Apps Built Without a Single Line of Code

#24

Post by fiatjaf »

fiatjaf wrote: post #23

I don't know if this makes sense, but I imagine a "visual website builder" that works with components, like React Components. Each visual part of the site, in each page, has a component. That component may be just static text or image, or it can run code before rendering something. That should be enough to start.

There could be premade components, but the real thing is to let people write code actually. Non-technical folks may be able to write small pieces of code, I guess, even if they're just copying and pasting, then modifying.

The code run in each component should be able to talk to a database (locally or over the wire), act on global page parameters or React to form submissions.

Re: Show HN: Websites and Apps Built Without a Single Line of Code

#25

Post by fiatjaf »

fiatjaf wrote: post #23

I don't know if this makes sense, but I imagine a "visual website builder" that works with components, like React Components. Each visual part of the site, in each page, has a component. That component may be just static text or image, or it can run code before rendering something. That should be enough to start.

Technical support could also be given, in such a way that if each component is independent and runs a small piece of code that is transparent to the user and the developer who's supporting the user, it should be straightforward to help users.

Since each component is independent, it should be clear to the user what he is trying to do in that component specifically. Since it is clear, the technical support could tackle that problem in no time.

Re: Show HN: Websites and Apps Built Without a Single Line of Code

#26

Post by beaconstudios »

startupdiscuss wrote: post #22
beaconstudios wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

oh hey, I just realised it was you - I tweeted you about getting in touch previously. Yeah this is a big focal point for v1 - providing an avenue for developers to write in any features that aren't natively provided in the editor. I'm currently playing around with a "code view" that shows you the compiled, unminified version of whichever component you're working on and allows you to modify it directly. The plan is to…

Looking forward to playing with it. One thing everyone wants to avoid is lockin. I have the feeling now that if AWS raises prices, I can go to Azure. If Postgres adds some new RestFul feature, I can switch to it. If I have to use your solution for the long term, and you are charging for it (which, of course, you should), I don't want to be bound to that solution forever. What if you sell the service and the buyer shu…

Yeah I totally agree - in no way should your company's software be dependent on the continued existence of my service. My thinking on this is that the service I'm offering needs to be sliced up into opt-in units - $X/month for the builder, cost-plus for hosting and scaling, gateway fee for ecommerce and so on. That way, companies that want to scale out can mix and match the offering as they choose. I am somewhat concerned that someone could build most of their app and then export the code and cancel, but as I'm still building out the MVP I'll leave that for later :)

Re: Show HN: Websites and Apps Built Without a Single Line of Code

#27

Post by startupdiscuss »

beaconstudios wrote: post #26
startupdiscuss wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Looking forward to playing with it. One thing everyone wants to avoid is lockin. I have the feeling now that if AWS raises prices, I can go to Azure. If Postgres adds some new RestFul feature, I can switch to it. If I have to use your solution for the long term, and you are charging for it (which, of course, you should), I don't want to be bound to that solution forever. What if you sell the service and the buyer shu…

Yeah I totally agree - in no way should your company's software be dependent on the continued existence of my service. My thinking on this is that the service I'm offering needs to be sliced up into opt-in units - $X/month for the builder, cost-plus for hosting and scaling, gateway fee for ecommerce and so on. That way, companies that want to scale out can mix and match the offering as they choose. I am somewhat conc…

Don't be afraid of that, you should be happy to have that as a service and encourage some people to do that if they want. I think 98% of the people will end up exporting their code and not using the service. It will be free. But it will make your service famous and the few people who do pay will be loyal.

You can't do everything well. If the main thing you do is an MVP producing service, that is great.

Add on to that. You might end up adding a whole different set of services such as paying for user feedback or user analysis or something else.

Edit: Just to be clear - I don't mean to advise you on what the service should or should not be. I just mean that it will evolve in ways you may not anticipate. The market will pick and choose what it wants. The things you initially think are small might turn out to be more profitable than the things you initially think are big.

Re: Show HN: Websites and Apps Built Without a Single Line of Code

#28

Post by beaconstudios »

startupdiscuss wrote: post #27
beaconstudios wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah I totally agree - in no way should your company's software be dependent on the continued existence of my service. My thinking on this is that the service I'm offering needs to be sliced up into opt-in units - $X/month for the builder, cost-plus for hosting and scaling, gateway fee for ecommerce and so on. That way, companies that want to scale out can mix and match the offering as they choose. I am somewhat conc…

Don't be afraid of that, you should be happy to have that as a service and encourage some people to do that if they want. I think 98% of the people will end up exporting their code and not using the service. It will be free. But it will make your service famous and the few people who do pay will be loyal. You can't do everything well. If the main thing you do is an MVP producing service, that is great. Add on to that…

I'm not really aiming for an MVP service in the long run though - I want to enable people to scale out their idea into a full product without having to export and start coding. I also don't think I would be keen to build this as a completely free (or effectively free) service, as this is going to be a big project and I want to scale it out into a business.

I don't want to lock in users either though, so I'm aiming to find a good point where the product provides enough value that users would prefer to keep using it over exporting and coding.

Re: Show HN: Websites and Apps Built Without a Single Line of Code

#29

Post by onvel »

startupdiscuss wrote: post #20
beaconstudios wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

hi, I'm working on something similar to Bubble myself - what makes you say that you want such a tool to generate open source code?

Well, the big issue with any of these is that you invariably find yourself needing that one feature so badly. "Here is your site!" "Great, let's add authentication." "Cool, do you want to login with Google, Twitter or Facebook?" "Github..." "Ooh, add it to the list..." And then you're waiting. This doesn't just happen once, it happens constantly on all kinds of things you need. This way you can go in and change it ar…

Bubble has an API connector that allows to connect to various third party APIs and integrate them into your app (including Github, Spotify, Banking etc). They also opened the possibility for users to create custom plugins with visual elements and workflows using JS code, so that changes the game completely... Although you still can't take the code outside of Bubble, it looks very attractive to build an MVP or even full blown product there.

Re: Show HN: Websites and Apps Built Without a Single Line of Code

#30

Post by rustyhacker »

throwaway2016a wrote: post #9

I often feel like there is an opportunity for a hybrid model. Build the app "without code" but then pay to download the code and customize it to your will / deploy on your own infrastructure. Not saying this would happen with this company but if you don't own the code you are just (as another poster put it) renting your app. If the company you are renting from goes under or raises their prices you are out of luck and…

I can see where you are coming from. There are times when I think of a useful tool or service but just don't have the time or funds to do it. In some of those cases I feel like that I cannot be the only one who will find that (non-existing) useful.

I suppose that's the motivation behind hackermake.com, somewhere that people could show their ideas and the end result would be available to everyone. But such things requires a vibrant community behind them and building/attracting such community is quite difficult.

Would be very interested in hearing your thought on such approaches.

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