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Ask HN: Developers with kids, how do you skill up?

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Re: Ask HN: Developers with kids, how do you skill up?

#401
post #391
post #374

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It won't kill you, or your career, if you miss out on a shitty framework or two. How about: if you miss on most weekends, music festivals, backpacking through different countries, working whenever you want, getting a drink whenever you want....and that is only your personal freedoms. Add to that all the responsibilities that comes with parenting. I'm not saying its not a good idea to be a parent; simply that its no…

When my older daughter was 7 and my younger daughter was 3 months old we went on a 2.5 month camping trip to Australia. This is more than what me and many other people have done with no kids. We've certainly taken the kids to music festivals as well and have gone on short backpacking trips (not that we couldn't do long ones if we wanted). A lot of the limitations you're describing are self imposed. Life tends to have…

> A lot of the limitations you're describing are self imposed.

I'm sure there are some self imposed limitations, and I'm sure there are other avenues opened up by having children as well. I'm not saying there aren't. All I'm saying is that people should be aware of them before making that important decision. It shouldn't just be a natural progression i.e. college -> job -> marriage -> kids.

> Life tends to have responsibilities whether you have kids or not.

Its the specific responsibilities of child-rearing that I do not like. Also, let's please not gloss over the incredibly time consuming, financially draining task of raising children by saying that "life is the same either way". That is simply not true. I'm not making a judgement about which path is better, but lets agree on the facts.

> Having kids is a life changing experience for sure but you can definitely "skill up" and do a lot of other things after you've had kids. Not a problem.

Again, not denying this. In fact, having kids might make you want to be more ambitious so as to provide a better future for them, which might be more motivation. That still doesn't change the points I've made, in that it is a huge tradeoff in lifestyle and one must be clear about that.

Re: Ask HN: Developers with kids, how do you skill up?

#402
post #373
post #343

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think a lot of people can sympathize, but as you said, it's kinda taboo to say you wish you didn't have kids! I think you get the same feeling, a loss of freedoms, from any significant evolution in life. Leaving college: "I wish I could still go out drinking every other day and perform the best in my peer-circle" Getting to a more serious romantic stage in your relationship: "I wish I could still play video games a…

> it's kinda taboo to say you wish you didn't have kids! I think you get the same feeling, a loss of freedoms, from any significant evolution in life. I think any society that has thrived has had some variation of this cultural trait. Its easy to see why: without lots of children the society would simply die out. This is a very nuanced point though. As a young, somewhat single developer, I'm incredibly grateful to wo…

You may not have met the right person yet. It doesn't feel so much like "settling down" as much as "co-captain in life's adventures."

Re: Ask HN: Developers with kids, how do you skill up?

#403
post #401
post #391

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When my older daughter was 7 and my younger daughter was 3 months old we went on a 2.5 month camping trip to Australia. This is more than what me and many other people have done with no kids. We've certainly taken the kids to music festivals as well and have gone on short backpacking trips (not that we couldn't do long ones if we wanted). A lot of the limitations you're describing are self imposed. Life tends to have…

> A lot of the limitations you're describing are self imposed. I'm sure there are some self imposed limitations, and I'm sure there are other avenues opened up by having children as well. I'm not saying there aren't. All I'm saying is that people should be aware of them before making that important decision. It shouldn't just be a natural progression i.e. college -> job -> marriage -> kids. > Life tends to have respo…

> That still doesn't change the points I've made, in that it is a huge tradeoff in lifestyle and one must be clear about that.

This is the case for many life decisions. I don't see how this is a helpful addition to the conversation.

* Move to another state? There will be big life implications.

* Change careers? Ditto.

* Go to college?

* Go _back_ to school?

* Spend loads of free time hacking away instead of getting out of the house?

* Travel a bunch, perhaps at the cost of rapid career advancement?

* Take a huge pay cut to work on something you enjoy?

All of these (and more) will limit you in various ways, but gift you with different experiences. The same is for kids.

It sounds like you don't want kids. That's cool, I'm glad you know what you want. But no need to hype up this decision to have kids or not as scary or some kind of albatross. It's just another decision with pros and cons.

Re: Ask HN: Developers with kids, how do you skill up?

#404

All the responses here indicate the same "la dee da having kids is so wonderful that you don't even miss the other stuff." Fuck that. I have kids and I totally miss being able to stay up all night working on stuff and exploring new technologies, feeling like the world is going on without me. Don't get me wrong, I'm a passable dad, spend as much time with kids as possible, take them out to libraries and parks and try…

I have two daughters, 7 and 8. Both have clinically diagnosed ADHD and the eldest has ODD and was born with heart problems that required open heart surgery to fix. I love them both to death. On their good days they're amazing kids. On their bad days, I, like you just slog through it and keep my thoughts to myself wondering just how much longer I can keep going. It's hard. You don't want to ruin your kids by admitting…

What exactly is ODD? Where is the line drawn between an aggressive child and ODD? Are girls diagnosed more liberally with ODD than boys?

Re: Ask HN: Developers with kids, how do you skill up?

#405
I have a 4 yo son and a 9 month old. I am a stay at home dad and I just launched a startup. My kids go to bed a8 and I work and learn from 8pm to either 12 or 2am.

Yes it sucks. Life is a series of choices and I choose to loose sleep instead of time with kids or work time. It took a while, but I learned javascript, angular, AWS, heroku, and several other things. It just takes longer.

Re: Ask HN: Developers with kids, how do you skill up?

#406
post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We've got 3: 4,2, and 9 months. Thank goodness they all sleep (relatively) well. The baby goes down at 6 and the older ones go down at 7:30 (really, we start the process at like 7, targeting 7:30). We're also incredibly lucky that bedtime isn't much of a fight, it goes pretty smoothly so we're not all ragged for the rest of the night. I usually don't count on doing anything beyond trivial at all after they go to bed-…

I was wondering how you'd end up with kids 2, 4 and 9 months old there for a moment.

Harem style.

Re: Ask HN: Developers with kids, how do you skill up?

#407
post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with you about the need to remain buzzword compliant for jobs, but are we "skilling up" or spinning our wheels? There is some worthwhile learning, but a lot of it is just BS status signaling. Learning another SPA framework that solves the problems of the last framework, while introducing new problems? Learning yet another way to bundle your web content? A new transpiled language to patch the holes in JavaScri…

>Learning another SPA framework that solves the problems of the last framework, while introducing new problems? Learning yet another way to bundle your web content? A new transpiled language to patch the holes in JavaScript? I understand that HN is (probably?) pretty web-centric, but this portion of your comment makes me wonder if it's just the web that's fucked. I'm not hearing a ton of complaints re: burnout or bei…

Every now and then, things go haywire in the web world.

The last time I recall feeling this way was 2005-ish, when Java frameworks took off. Previously, small to medium sized java apps used servlets, jsp, jdbc, and something along the lines of the "java cookbook."

It was, in fact, inefficient, with lots of typing, and it was difficult to manage dependencies. I think the work that went into dependency injection, ORMs, MVC frameworks, and so forth was undertaken by smart people.

The result, unfortunately, was close to fatal for java as a language for small to medium sized web applications. Spring, Pico, Struts, Struts 2, Spring MVC, iBatis, Hibernate, Spring JPA, Wicket, Stripes, Tapestry... just to be clear, I understand that Java frameworks are no longer this chaotic, so I don't mean fatal in the sense that it never worked. I mean fatal in that this was the moment that I, and a lot of people who quietly enjoyed java and felt embarrassed when people made fun of java devs (blub programmers) here on HN reluctantly joined the chorus and gave up on it, never to return.

People complain about the complainers, asking why choice is such a bad thing. The problem was, getting any of the choices to work nicely together was a challenging. All of a sudden, something as simple as a crud front end became extremely challenging. I lost a lot of time and become, not exaggerating, very unhappy during this time. It made me not want to be a developer anymore.

I believe we are now in a similar time with javascript frameworks. It's not that these frameworks aren't addressing an important problem, intelligently. It's simply getting a basic crud app up and running is tough, and making the inevitable modifications to test, alter, implement business logic, and so fort, is vastly more complicated in SPA frameworks with some other backend than it is in, say, Rails. That doesn't mean these frameworks are the product of poor design or bad developers, it's the opposite. These are the product of exceptional people working on hard problems. But if you don't need it, you're putting yourself in the path of tremendous complexity and churn, for very little benefit.

If I learned one lesson from 2005, it's to have the conviction to stick with old, outdated technology, for longer, even when people are telling you it's wrong and out of date. I knew in 2005 that writing your own jdbc and routing around through Servlets wasn't going to be the right way to do it for much longer, but that doesn't mean you have to use the first round of frameworks that addresses this! Eventually I hopped over to Rails (a lot of people here on HN think rails developers picked it because they were magpie developers, I'm not sure how many people realize a lot of us picked it reluctantly, only after it really became clear that the time invested in a new framework would pay off).

And that would be my advice now, if you're free to make this choice. Stick with integrated systems, and pick one that is clear and well researched. If this isn't a possibility for you because of your requirements, then yes, by all means, do use (what I heard Ember described as) a rapidly evolving hack pad for brilliant developers working on extremely difficult problems.

Otherwise, watch, observe, try things out, but I'd stick with a better researched and integrated system like Rails, add javascript as needed but sparingly, Just because you know you won't be doing it like this forever doesn't mean you have to stop doing it like this right this moment!

And be aware, the solution to the java churn for many of us (myself included) wasn't that a winner emerged, it was that with a loud crashing noise, a different solution that addressed these problems swept them off the table.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if something like that happens here. The existing MVC approach is still a bit deficient with highly synchronized apps. Current advances in Rails 5 make it possible to do some of this... but (and now I'm really making guesses), I think that non javascript languages, transpiled to isomorphic javascript, may lead to highly productive integrated frameworks that finally tip the reluctant ones, like me, to give up on our older ways of doing things and finally make the plunge.

This may turn out to be so effective that people take a look at tons of javascript code, written in framework specific ways, and start wondering how to get it back over to ruby, or python, or many of the other wonderful languages that have been temporarily sidelined. You may, in fact, be better off having a code base in an older, more dated framework, that gives better clarity than the current, more modern javascript version would give you.

Re: Ask HN: Developers with kids, how do you skill up?

#408
Many interesting answers in this thread. But to get to your question: How do you skill up? My answer would be: As best you can, all the time. Find pockets of time and learning tasks that fit within them. Explore opportunities: Moocs, toy projects, more serious projects, read books, listen to podcasts during your commute, when you work out (which you should even though you don't have time for it), switch jobs from time to time, talk to people. Just never stop. One thing you should do however, from time to time, is to give up: It's not as if every learning task is feasible. Kids/work/family do put sometime severe constraints on what you can do. Some things just don't work out, and you won't necessarily know what they are before trying. So try lots of things, but give up from time to time when you have to. Learn about what your constraints are, and design next your attempt to fit them better, but don't stop. (.... but every now and then, you just have to find/steal/cheat to get some time to just hack, there is no substitute :-) )

Re: Ask HN: Developers with kids, how do you skill up?

#409
post #401
post #391

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When my older daughter was 7 and my younger daughter was 3 months old we went on a 2.5 month camping trip to Australia. This is more than what me and many other people have done with no kids. We've certainly taken the kids to music festivals as well and have gone on short backpacking trips (not that we couldn't do long ones if we wanted). A lot of the limitations you're describing are self imposed. Life tends to have…

> A lot of the limitations you're describing are self imposed. I'm sure there are some self imposed limitations, and I'm sure there are other avenues opened up by having children as well. I'm not saying there aren't. All I'm saying is that people should be aware of them before making that important decision. It shouldn't just be a natural progression i.e. college -> job -> marriage -> kids. > Life tends to have respo…

Having children is definitely a bigger commitment than getting a dog ;) However the picture painted that your life is over financially or otherwise is a bit of an exaggeration. So it's not a fact that you can't go backpacking, drinking, or learn a new framework once you have children. Don't get me wrong, having kids is a huge change in your life, just not necessarily in the way people who don't have kids think.

Everyone is free to live their lives as they wish. I'm not implying you should or shouldn't get married, or a get a job, or go to college, or have kids, in any order you feel like... It's just that you shouldn't decide not to have kids because you think you won't be able to learn a new framework (or whatever other skill you wish to acquire) once you have kids. At least generally speaking. Different people may have their own specific situations.

Re: Ask HN: Developers with kids, how do you skill up?

#410
post #373
post #343

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think a lot of people can sympathize, but as you said, it's kinda taboo to say you wish you didn't have kids! I think you get the same feeling, a loss of freedoms, from any significant evolution in life. Leaving college: "I wish I could still go out drinking every other day and perform the best in my peer-circle" Getting to a more serious romantic stage in your relationship: "I wish I could still play video games a…

> it's kinda taboo to say you wish you didn't have kids! I think you get the same feeling, a loss of freedoms, from any significant evolution in life. I think any society that has thrived has had some variation of this cultural trait. Its easy to see why: without lots of children the society would simply die out. This is a very nuanced point though. As a young, somewhat single developer, I'm incredibly grateful to wo…

> > it's kinda taboo to say you wish you didn't have kids!

> I think any society that has thrived has had some variation of this cultural trait.

I think in a lot of societies, having kids doesn't quite restrict your options as much as modern American society - prior to this century, you'd likely still live surrounded by family and a community who could help you with a lot of the childcare.

You could drop the kids off at granddad's on the way to work, and not spend a significant portion of your income on daycare; in-laws could come and stay with you for awhile to help you get some sleep during those first few months; if you needed to do something during a weekend that you couldn't bring a kid to, you could drop the kid off at the neighbors'.

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