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To fix L.A.'s traffic, we need tolls

latimes.com

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Re: To fix L.A.'s traffic, we need tolls

#491

Post by jpatokal »

astrodust wrote: post #223
photojosh wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ditto for Quito, Ecuador: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trolleybuses_in_Quito I'm now back in Australia, and despairing because my small city is putting in a light rail solution when a bus rapid transit option would be so much cheaper, given our low ridership. But buses aren't cool. :(

Which city is doing LRT? These can be more cost-effective in the long run at certain ridership levels, plus they're usually a better experience for the passenger. Busses just plain suck.

Given the mention of "small city", I presume this is referring to Canberra: https://www.transport.act.gov.au/light-rail-project

I don't think it's a bad idea as such, particularly if you consider it planning ahead for projected growth, but there are a lot of much larger cities in Australia that could use the same money more usefully.

Building a BRT in Canberra now would be kind of pointless, since traffic jams are essentially non-existent, making ordinary buses rapid enough already.

Re: To fix L.A.'s traffic, we need tolls

#492

Post by jakecopp »

oulu2006 wrote: post #354
photojosh wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ditto for Quito, Ecuador: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trolleybuses_in_Quito I'm now back in Australia, and despairing because my small city is putting in a light rail solution when a bus rapid transit option would be so much cheaper, given our low ridership. But buses aren't cool. :(

I'm sitting right next to where they've been drilling on Devonshire street for the past 4 months to move a power cable to central station! I've taken busses through Sydney for years, and to be honest, I'm really hoping the LRS does what they promise it will, because the bus system here is so bad.

According to the Sydney Morning Herald, one-third of buses will still be required when the light rail starts operating in 2019 due to insufficient capacity, rising to 80% of current buses by 2031!

http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/sydney-cbd-and-south-east-light-ra...

Re: To fix L.A.'s traffic, we need tolls

#493

Post by justinmc »

logfromblammo wrote: post #250
yequalsx wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People do know that it costs to drive a car but the cost is hidden in some sense. I think few people actually calculate how much driving really costs. When I drive 10 miles I don't think to myself that it's going to cost me $5.40 (using IRS mileage rate). Gasoline taxes do not come close to paying for the road system. I remember when gas hit around $5 a gallon in the U.S. some years ago people did think about driving…

When dreaming up new ways to tax cars, please bear in mind that wear on roadways from vehicles is proportional to miles driven times per-axle weight to the fourth power . A gas tax is already proportional to miles driven times vehicle weight times a fuel efficiency factor. Congestion, on the other hand, is a more difficult thing. Vehicle length certainly plays a factor, as well as width, acceleration, and braking dis…

Do you have a source for your roadway wear formula? Just interested to read more.

Re: To fix L.A.'s traffic, we need tolls

#494

Post by throwaway91111 »

closeparen wrote: post #455
idlewords wrote: post #433

Earlier quoted context omitted.

London, Paris, NYC and Tokyo all have a comprehensive subway system and light rail covering the extended metro area. For many parts of LA, driving (or taking a bus through terrible traffic) is the only option.

New York's public transit commuters have some of the worst commute times in the country, at 7.5-11 hours/week (45 minutes each way on the low end). For LA's drivers, even 37 minutes is pretty bad. [1] Public transit mitigates the environmental and public safety effects of traffic, but the "wasting your life in a slow-moving vehicle" problem is much worse with public transit (even rail). And no, that time is not reusa…

New Yorkers can commute via public transit from much further; I have friends who take NJ transit up to NYC from philly. LA transit is a joke, so commute times naturally bound at its tiny reach.

Or to put it another way, at least you have the option of commutes. I much prefer my 7 hour a week commute from Oakland into SF to a slightly shorter drive. And although the bay bridge is a joke during rush hour, you can still grab the bus and read the whole time.

Re: To fix L.A.'s traffic, we need tolls

#495

Post by csharpminor »

timthelion wrote: post #467
csharpminor wrote: post #441

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, but what makes a tram better than a bus? I'm genuinely curious. As far as I can tell they're much more expensive per mile, have difficulty on hills, and make the street more dangerous for cyclists. The only advantage trams seem to have is that they don't have the stigma of busses.

There are several reasons. I'll devide them into to groups. Fundamental reasons: 1) The tram is a heavy vehicle running on rails and uses heavy spring shocks with one degree of freedom of movement (to tilt side to side). The bus is a light vehical with softer shock springs which have 360 degrees of freedom of movement. That is, that the bus can shake up/down, side to side, forwards/backwards and anything inbetween. T…

Thanks for the thoughtful response! I definitely agree that trams offer a better rider experience.

However, I'd argue that these benefits are outweighed by their prohibitive cost. According to the American Public Transportation Association it's roughly $30-$70m per mile, as opposed to $3-$30m per mile for busses. For example, with the $133m spent on Cincinnati's 3.6 mile tram line, you could have purchased about 300 electric busses.

Additionally, trams in the U.S. usually end up running in lanes that are also occupied by traffic, which means that they have to start/stop much more frequently and can't achieve the speed/efficiency that many european trams can.

Re: To fix L.A.'s traffic, we need tolls

#496

Post by u801e »

Collecting money via tolls has a higher administrative cost compared to collecting money via the gas tax [1]. The infrastucture to collect the gas tax is already in place. In contrast, there are a lot of things that need to be done before tolls can be put in place (legal, contracting, setting up collection points, etc). Plus, the public-private partnerships that some governments get into for these types of toll roads don't always work out [2] [3] [4]

It would make a lot more sense to just raise the gas tax to achieve the same effect.

[1] https://www.thenewspaper.com/news/24/2438.asp

[2] https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2014-09-22/indiana-t...

[3] http://kxan.com/2016/03/02/company-that-runs-sh-130-toll-fil...

[4] http://www.virginiaplaces.org/transportation/pocaparkway.htm...

Re: To fix L.A.'s traffic, we need tolls

#497

Post by jakecopp »

jpatokal wrote: post #491
astrodust wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which city is doing LRT? These can be more cost-effective in the long run at certain ridership levels, plus they're usually a better experience for the passenger. Busses just plain suck.

Given the mention of "small city", I presume this is referring to Canberra: https://www.transport.act.gov.au/light-rail-project I don't think it's a bad idea as such, particularly if you consider it planning ahead for projected growth, but there are a lot of much larger cities in Australia that could use the same money more usefully. Building a BRT in Canberra now would be kind of pointless, since traffic jams are es…

When I lived in Canberra a year ago I noticed some backed up traffic in peak time near EPIC - however I realised there was only one car lane in each direction, and one bus lane in each direction.

I don't agree that we should always build more roads if there is traffic, but building a light rail solution when the bottleneck is one congested car lane each way seems a bit unusual.

Re: To fix L.A.'s traffic, we need tolls

#498

Post by fragsworth »

u801e wrote: post #496

Collecting money via tolls has a higher administrative cost compared to collecting money via the gas tax [1]. The infrastucture to collect the gas tax is already in place. In contrast, there are a lot of things that need to be done before tolls can be put in place (legal, contracting, setting up collection points, etc). Plus, the public-private partnerships that some governments get into for these types of toll roads…

It's not the same effect as dynamic tolling, which can change depending on traffic.

Re: To fix L.A.'s traffic, we need tolls

#499

Post by sampo »

closeparen wrote: post #465
eigenvector wrote: post #456

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An hour reading, sleeping or just zoned out on a train is a lot less fatigue than an hour operating a car in stop-and-go traffic.

20 minutes standing on a violently accelerating and decelerating train while strangers' bodies are touching you is much more fatiguing than 2 hours at a standstill in a car (BART is far and away the worst part of every workday, while even the slowest trips to Monterey or Tahoe are a blast, but maybe that's just me).

> BART is far and away the worst part of every workday

BART is loud, rattly, screechy, wobbly, and generally feels like it could fall apart any moment. I wonder if even third world countries are able to produce trains that bad. But in developed parts of the world, trains are quiet and clean and run smoothly.

In general when Americans say they don't like public transit, they mean they don't like American public transit, because it is so badly done in America.

Re: To fix L.A.'s traffic, we need tolls

#500

Post by sahaskatta »

u801e wrote: post #496

Collecting money via tolls has a higher administrative cost compared to collecting money via the gas tax [1]. The infrastucture to collect the gas tax is already in place. In contrast, there are a lot of things that need to be done before tolls can be put in place (legal, contracting, setting up collection points, etc). Plus, the public-private partnerships that some governments get into for these types of toll roads…

I wish it was that simple. Raising the gas tax isn't the solution. The gas tax will not work for to much longer because it doesn't accurately correlate to the number miles traveled.

- A old compact car from 2007 may only get 20 mpg while a new car from 2017 may get 40 mpg.

- Someone would a plug-in hybrid such as a Chevy Volt may only fill up their tank once every few months as they start off with a 50 mile battery range each morning.

- And those with pure electrics like a Tesla do not get taxed at all.

Raising the gas tax also unfairly punishes the lower income bracket who often drive older vehicles with worse MPG.

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