UC proposes its first enrollment cap on out-of-state students • Hacker News Board

Re: UC proposes its first enrollment cap on out-of-state students

#91

Post by azernik » Tue, Mar 07, 2017, 9:53 PM UTC

zodiac wrote: post #88

__derek__ wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe. There is some upper-limit to the number of students the system can admit. Enrolling out-of-state students is a net gain if the they stay in California and are productive enough to outweigh the productivity of the in-state students they push out and the potentially lost productivity from those students' going to non-UC schools.

How do out of state students "push out" in state students?

I happen to think out-of-state students are good for the system, but just to play devil's advocate here:

There may be a limit to how fast new capacity can be brought online, even with an increased budget; in that case, the increase needs to be a) slowed down to match the rate of investment, and b) distributed to the new campuses where new capacity is being added. This last is actually a result of the new policy, though I'm worried that these caps would remain even after capacity has caught up.

Re: UC proposes its first enrollment cap on out-of-state students

#92

Post by imjustsaying » Wed, Mar 08, 2017, 1:42 AM UTC

me2i81 wrote: post #50

imjustsaying wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>decreasing state funding per student. I don't get this. Not only can a person who has pauper parents afford tuition + cash left over to pay the rent at any state school in the nation due to Pell Grants and subsidized student loans, but in California you still get additional state grants on top of that. Not to mention all the other freebies that California dumps on its residents. If you mean to say that kids aren't g…

The maximum Pell grant plus the maximum Stafford loan will not even cover UC tuition, let alone housing or other expenses.

>Tuition and fees* $13,500

http://admission.universityofcalifornia.edu/paying-for-uc/tu...

>$9,500 for freshmen, $12,500 for seniors

https://studentaid.ed.gov/sa/types/loans/subsidized-unsubsid... (subsidized here means super-subsidized, unsubsidized means less subsidized, as the government is still artificially restricting prices by guaranteeing the loan)

>for 2016-2017, Cal Grants are up to $12,240 at a University of California campus

Please correct me if the award isn't this high, I don't know anything about California grants.

http://www.csac.ca.gov/doc.asp?id=905

>Pell Grant: For the 2016–17 award year (July 1, 2016, to June 30, 2017), the maximum award is $5,815

https://studentaid.ed.gov/sa/types/grants-scholarships/pell

Total .govbux: $27,555 Total tuition: $13,500

Twice as high lol

Re: UC proposes its first enrollment cap on out-of-state students

#93

Post by imjustsaying » Wed, Mar 08, 2017, 1:44 AM UTC

azernik wrote: post #42

imjustsaying wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>decreasing state funding per student. I don't get this. Not only can a person who has pauper parents afford tuition + cash left over to pay the rent at any state school in the nation due to Pell Grants and subsidized student loans, but in California you still get additional state grants on top of that. Not to mention all the other freebies that California dumps on its residents. If you mean to say that kids aren't g…

Decreasing state funding for student manifests itself in a lower quality of education; not that the student is unable to pay their tuition, but that the school is unable to hire enough professors.

I'm going to need to see a source on that. The US has by far the most expensive education in the world yet doesn't come close to the highest scores of any metric other than self-confidence.

Re: UC proposes its first enrollment cap on out-of-state students

#94

Post by handedness » Wed, Mar 08, 2017, 2:19 AM UTC

canttestthis wrote: post #86

handedness wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That core fund report seems to be missing something, as if the total total per-student cost were $16,890, the vast majority of that would be covered by the current $12.3K annual tuition (to say nothing of +$27K from out-of-state students). The UC system would therefore be unlikely to have the underfunded pension problem they currently face, for example. Their annual budget is pushing $30B, and their student populatio…

Your calculations are oversimplified. The real cost to a student should be around $20k. Does the $30B per year not cover the funding for the UC medical centers, museums, athletic programs, etc.? The amount of money actually spent on students (through faculty salaries, financial aid, lab equipment, etc) is closer to $7B. Also you need to remove grad students from the calculation entirely, they disproportionately affec…

I'm not sure why those areas can be selectively dismissed. That the UC system overextends itself in a variety of non-instructional areas isn't a compelling case for its fiscal health and management acumen.

If I ran a training business with a negative P&L and couldn't fully fund my employee's pensions, I would hardly be able to say, "your calculations are oversimplified. Our losses include our museum and lacrosse team."

Re: UC proposes its first enrollment cap on out-of-state students

#95

Post by laurencerowe » Sat, Mar 11, 2017, 5:26 AM UTC

handedness wrote: post #81

laurencerowe wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know where your $120K/year per student figure comes from, but it seems highly misleading. The most recent figures I could find (AY 2012-2013) put the cost at $16,890. https://www.universityofcalifornia.edu/news/uc-educational-e... Research focussed universities like UC do of course spend a lot more on research, but those activities have their own dedicated funding streams, mostly Federal grants.

That core fund report seems to be missing something, as if the total total per-student cost were $16,890, the vast majority of that would be covered by the current $12.3K annual tuition (to say nothing of +$27K from out-of-state students). The UC system would therefore be unlikely to have the underfunded pension problem they currently face, for example. Their annual budget is pushing $30B, and their student populatio…

These figures show that research intensity varies significantly between Texas A&M, UC, and Harvard. Number of students is not a terribly useful denominator when most of a university's income and expenditure is for research.