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To fix L.A.'s traffic, we need tolls

latimes.com

371–380 of 689 posts

Re: To fix L.A.'s traffic, we need tolls

#371
post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

LA is getting better with mass transit. The problem is it's not running 24 hours. It shuts down around 1am so you it's not really good for doing things at night like in NYC. Also, there's a TON of crazy people riding, literal homeless crazy people, or kind of thuggish people. There needs to be some sort of loitering code enforcement on the train along with more security. I feel uncomfortable as a dude, I bet women fe…

> Also, there's a TON of crazy people riding, literal homeless crazy people, or kind of thuggish people. There needs to be some sort of loitering code enforcement on the train along with more security. I feel uncomfortable as a dude, I bet women feel even more so. One of the ways to improve the public transit, as a whole, is to make people of all socioeconomic classes take transit. Consider New York, for instance, wh…

> One of the ways to improve the public transit, as a whole, is to make people of all socioeconomic classes take transit. Consider New York, for instance, where millionaires are shoulder-to-shoulder with waiters, and homeless people on their commute... And it works surprisingly well.

It doesn't work that well. NYC subways are disgusting, especially in the summer. And you can't prevent citizens from utilizing public resources just because they smell bad or are uncouth.

> Until politically wealthy people have to deal with the problem, they won't support any solutions.

We just passed a proposal allocating over $1 billion to house the homeless. I think that qualifies as a solution.

Re: To fix L.A.'s traffic, we need tolls

#372
post #334
post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Buses in the LA region have a bad reputation because of other bus passengers. If you ride the bus you might have to sit next to someone who smells bad or plays loud music or acts out in inappropriate ways. That's why everyone who can afford it drives their own car: to be alone. The reputation would improve if they could get more "regular" people riding, but it's kind of a chicken-or-the-egg problem.

Am I horrible person to want higher end trains again (like there used to be)? So I can pay double but have the confidence that my fellow passengers have jobs and families they care about and don't have voices in their head. Does this make me a bad human to want this?

if you seek reassurance that your wants are shared by millions of other people, look out the window of your car at all the other folks who buy and fuel their own, expensive private cars so that they can sit in traffic in LA rather than sit in traffic in buses in LA.

Re: To fix L.A.'s traffic, we need tolls

#373
post #77

Problem with LA is that we build horizontally and not vertically. We keep adding more homes in suburbs and not building up in the cities that have the jobs. There's a big anti growth movement preventing high density housing. They have been successful in preventing high density projects like the Bergamot transit village(on a rail line too). Today we're voting on initiative that prevents large scale developments. If it…

Many people are not comfortable with the social environment of large >20-unit housing developments. The thing is, it's relatively easy to take full advantage of a 55-foot zoning ceiling (higher than nearly all of LA and most of SF as well) with buildings that have five or fewer units and entrances on the outside (possibly from a balcony). The reason large projects account for such a large proportion of units in development has a lot to do with the regulatory environment and high fixed costs of putting up a building (especially fees) which create barriers that can only be overcome by the kinds of large projects that most people don't like.

Parking requirements don't help, although I suspect that housing without parking tends to be a temporary residence; once the occupant can afford a car, they start trying to move. Building housing without parking is better if people can still own cars in spillover parking, but actually building spillover parking runs into the NIMBY problem where nobody wants to live near it. As a result the market for standalone parking spaces is extremely constrained and that's unlikely to change.

It's true that some people are just anti-growth but there are legitimate concerns being aired about the way that development seems to be going. Since the housing market is emphatically not free it's easy to see how the normal tendency of the market to give people what they want could be stymied and result in discontent. I started to think this way when, after about two years of pro-housing activism in San Francisco, I realized that:

- a lot of housing projects are opposed by the very sort of people they're supposed to be helping

- a lot of those people seem to be unhappy about the lifestyle the project offers them, or they find it unacceptable ("no pets, no smoking") and conclude they're being "pushed out" as "undesirables".

I can't deny that those are legitimate concerns. After all, I like pets and smoking. I also drive a car. How can I possibly ignore people who are mad that they're not allowed to have pets or smoke and it's becoming very hard to own a car? And this is why I say "people are not comfortable with the social environment". There are other concerns: noise, and low-noise requirements. Some people hate noise. Other people love to make noise. Should we plan for them to be separated by four inches of drywall? Is that even planning? Furthermore, poor people might benefit from collectivism, but they still like individualism. It's not surprising, considering our cultural history and capitalist economy, and the tendency of primates to imitate the behavior of high-status primates, that people like to "own" things and distinguish themselves and are turned off by the rhetoric of "community" (the trendy euphemism for "apartment building") and public spaces, especially when it comes time for them to find somewhere to live. It's easier to be an existentialist in an attic than an apartment. And it's these concerns that have made renting bearable in the first place: a lot of tenant's rights law has ultimately been justified by the American ideal that a person should be secure in their dwelling. That's not something I'd like to see go away.

The truth is, the majority of anti-housing advocates are not very good at economics and they don't really understand why the current policies are failing them. You can't figure out how to help people without figuring out how to help whiny, selfish, stupid people, because that's literally all of people. If the pro-growth side of the table continues to expect lifestyle to just happen while all the regulations focus on the numbers game, it's not going to happen, and people are still going to be mad at us. They have a good reason to be mad. They just don't know what to do about it.

Re: To fix L.A.'s traffic, we need tolls

#374

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Well in Prague, we just use busses when the tram line is being repaired. Its like a downgrade. Yeah, we do that in Munich too, but it sucks real hard. Especially when the replacement buses are also in the same traffic jam created by the construction site... and all the replacement buses cost big money these days, given that there are nowhere near enough bus drivers to serve the demand. ad 3) Yeah of course, but it'…

We made paper stickers reminding people that they are illegally parked and we place them on the wind sheild. If it rains, then the person will spend a good 15 minutes getting the gunk off.

Reminds me of Russia's "Stop a Douchebag" (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCMrKscEv_Ri1pvlRsLxsqJQ). Except those stickers are intentionally very sticky.

Re: To fix L.A.'s traffic, we need tolls

#375

Some observations: - LA is densifying fairly quickly. - More road capacity will not, in general, be added; road capacity is actually being removed. - Average car velocity is slowing and will likely continue to slow. - Freeways at capacity, such as the 101 in the morning, move at approximately bicycle speed. - Most bus routes in town move at slower than bicycle speed. - The slower the traffic is, the safer a bicycle t…

I had a daily commute that was 10 miles. I started biking to work and, as I got into better shape, I noticed that I could get there faster on bike.

I sweat easily though, so that option only worked for me because my office had a shower.

Re: To fix L.A.'s traffic, we need tolls

#376

The true solution to LA traffic will never happen. And that solution is buses. But not the current underfunded system that barely limps along. A massive number of buses, like 5x the current number. And combined with tolls for cars to get cars off the road. The large number of buses is critical because it greatly reduces wait time between transfers. It also allows adding express bus lines between major areas. But buse…

I really like that idea. The last mile issue in LA really is a problem, trying to cross streets is like playing Frogger and that would help a lot. I actually rode the buses in LA for about 2 years (Westside to UCLA). Adding more buses, and I mean a LOT more buses (10x), may actually work. However, the issue with LA buses is not the frequency or the timing of transfers, it is the city and the people themselves. LA is…

i agree with much of what you're saying, but -- 1 voter for ~50k residents? huh?

there are about 4 million residents in LA. 1 voter per 50k residents amounts to 80 voters. i must be misunderstanding your comment...

Re: To fix L.A.'s traffic, we need tolls

#377
post #307

This is just a band-aid. Same with adding buses, lanes, trains, etc. When something goes wrong in software we usually try to resolve it by finding a root cause. There are a lot of cars on the roads. Why? People live far away from their work. Why? All the office buildings are in one central place. Why? ... Etc. The solutions to the root causes, whatever they are, are, unfortunately, a lot more complex and expensive th…

in LA, all the office buildings are not in one central place. all the jobs are not in one central place. the patterns are not so easily discerned. the traffic is not so easily predictable. people often express surprise about how the traffic "was horrible and it was three o'clock in the morning on a Sunday", etc. if there is a single main problem, it is that there are too many cars for the available road and freeway s…

> if there is a single main problem, it is that there are too many cars for the available road and freeway space and too many people feel compelled to get into those cars and drive absolutely anywhere at any particular time

Exactly. The focus on improving traffic should be on addressing WHY people feel compelled to drive long distances throughout the day. Are they going to work, shopping, entertainment, etc?

The closer you can bring things to where people live, the less need there would be to get in your car and drive long distances.

Public transportation is the most effective in cities that are the most diverse; i.e, not large blocks of residential surrounding large blocks of commercial.

Even where I live, a city of about 65k, there are residential districts that have >2,000 homes, 1 major shopping district, and two smaller shopping districts. Freeway exits are all at the three shopping districts, which causes all traffic to funnel from the freeway into a very small commercial area before spreading out into the residential neighborhoods. And visa-versa, if you want to get onto the freeway from your home, you get pushed into the same funnel before you can get to the freeway.

The city plan appears to be specifically designed to funnel 65,000 people through shopping districts no matter whether the people need to shop or are just trying to get out of the city (freeway).

Re: To fix L.A.'s traffic, we need tolls

#378

The true solution to LA traffic will never happen. And that solution is buses. But not the current underfunded system that barely limps along. A massive number of buses, like 5x the current number. And combined with tolls for cars to get cars off the road. The large number of buses is critical because it greatly reduces wait time between transfers. It also allows adding express bus lines between major areas. But buse…

Do you have any experience with busses? Was that experience "great"? For example, have you lived in Hong Kong, which I understand is a Bus city? I live in Prague, and the trams are great. It is a 100% better experience than driving. Smooth, quiet, usually plenty of leg room. Doesn't smell. The busses, however, are hell. That low key vibration of the motor, the smell of the gass, the cramped spaces, the steps, all add…

I think you live in a different Prague than I do, or you don't travel near the city centre often. When I tried to use trams in summer, they were full of people, so much I couldn't move, smelling and incredibly hot. I was very happy when my car finally got fixed. Yes, there are a lot of problems with driving (parking, one-way roads, ...), but it's much more comfortable, so much, that the discomfort caused by traffic is next to none.

Re: To fix L.A.'s traffic, we need tolls

#379
post #145

The true solution to LA traffic will never happen. And that solution is buses. But not the current underfunded system that barely limps along. A massive number of buses, like 5x the current number. And combined with tolls for cars to get cars off the road. The large number of buses is critical because it greatly reduces wait time between transfers. It also allows adding express bus lines between major areas. But buse…

There's a middle ground between buses and rail: building defacto rail lines by transforming far-left lanes and middle dividers into dedicated bus tracks and semipermanent bus stations. Urbanized (Gary Hustwit, 2011) highlights the TransMilenio bus system, which serves the city of Bogota. It specifically covers elevating the experience and status of taking the bus by adopting positive aspects of rail systems: covered…

O-Bahn might work quite well - combining benefits of rail and buses...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/O-Bahn_Busway

It's fast, comfortable and those buses are able to collect passengers in suburbia.

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