To fix L.A.'s traffic, we need tolls • Hacker News Board

Re: To fix L.A.'s traffic, we need tolls

#301

Post by oneplane » Tue, Mar 07, 2017, 10:54 PM UTC

mulmen wrote: post #124

Retric wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mass transit is much cheaper to build and maintain as density increases. Assume every building has 4 vs. 40 stories, now consider how many homes / jobs / shops are within 0.2 miles of a subway stop. Further, how many subway stops you need to pass on the average trip. That's the real benefit to building up, walking simply becomes more effective.

Not only that, a subway station has value based on what is near it so it is not economical to build until you reach a certain density.

Let's not add commercial value, this is about solving real problems, not making money. The constant mixing of those two is what creates problems in the first place. There is no problem in having a an economical positive impact with a solution, but not solving a problem purely because it would "only" solve problems for many people instead of also making a ton of money is a bad way to live (at least, that's what it looks like).

Re: To fix L.A.'s traffic, we need tolls

#302

Post by illumin8 » Tue, Mar 07, 2017, 10:55 PM UTC

astrodust wrote: post #223

photojosh wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ditto for Quito, Ecuador: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trolleybuses_in_Quito I'm now back in Australia, and despairing because my small city is putting in a light rail solution when a bus rapid transit option would be so much cheaper, given our low ridership. But buses aren't cool. :(

Which city is doing LRT? These can be more cost-effective in the long run at certain ridership levels, plus they're usually a better experience for the passenger. Busses just plain suck.

Salt Lake City, Utah, has had very good success with light rail.

Re: To fix L.A.'s traffic, we need tolls

#303

Post by Neliquat » Tue, Mar 07, 2017, 10:55 PM UTC

taternuts wrote: post #98

I moved to LA about a year ago from DC, where the traffic is notoriously bad as well, and I have to say that LA traffic is leaps and bounds worse. I've never seen gridlock like this where you literally DO NOT MOVE. In DC, you'll move maybe a couple inches here and there, maybe average 2-5 MPH in a gridlock. Here, you sit completely still. When you're up to turn left, there's not even room to turn in because everyone…

>delivery services

So you are paying make it worse for everyone but you. Brilliant.

Re: To fix L.A.'s traffic, we need tolls

#304

Post by CodeWriter23 » Tue, Mar 07, 2017, 10:56 PM UTC

RamshackleJ wrote: post #14

myowncrapulence wrote: post #3

Imagine how much more expensive living in LA will be. Instead of fixing their god awful public transit (like NYC) they want to punish people for using the only reliable mode of transportation?

No. You are thinking about it wrong. By making it cost prohibitive for the poors to move around we will be able to concentrate their populations into designated "bottom feeder" neighborhoods allowing us to more effectively rob them of basic public services like education, healthcare, and potable water.

You forgot regressive forms of taxation. So increase the street sweeping to 3x a week in the bottom-feeder neighborhoods, and issue 3x the number of street sweeping violations.

Hyperbole aside, when you see gentrification in neighborhoods like Boyle Heights, one has to wonder how numbered are the days of LA's poor neighborhoods.

Re: To fix L.A.'s traffic, we need tolls

#305

Post by jessaustin » Tue, Mar 07, 2017, 10:57 PM UTC

shiftpgdn wrote: post #143

cosinetau wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Obviously this isn't exactly scientific reporting It doesn't need to be. Link to the local paper. There's a lot of misinformation being used today. It's not new, but we have the resources to verify things now. We need due diligence, not pontification.

http://www.houstonchronicle.com/news/houston-texas/houston/a... You may need to Google that article title and click through to read it but it outlines that even at $7 each way the price wasn't high enough so now it's $10 each way (not $8 as I stated.) Even so, the $3 price hike has done little to ease congestion.

Clearly the only scientific thing would be to have different tolls on different weekdays. Monday: $25, Tuesday: $10, Wednesday: $17, Thursday: $50, Friday: $31. Now you can see which price eases congestion the most!

Re: To fix L.A.'s traffic, we need tolls

#306

Post by petercooper » Tue, Mar 07, 2017, 10:57 PM UTC

I'm not sure I see this working, unless you toll every road or have a hidden toll by enforcing a local gasoline tax. Surface roads are a very viable way to make relatively long journeys in LA when the freeways are jammed.

When I fly into LAX and head to Studio City, I take La Cienega, Fairfax, Fountain, and Cahuenga.. it's so much faster than than the freeway unless it's night or weekend. ("Take Fountain" is even a cliche in Hollywood.)

Re: To fix L.A.'s traffic, we need tolls

#307

Post by Osiris » Tue, Mar 07, 2017, 10:57 PM UTC

This is just a band-aid. Same with adding buses, lanes, trains, etc. When something goes wrong in software we usually try to resolve it by finding a root cause.

There are a lot of cars on the roads. Why? People live far away from their work. Why? All the office buildings are in one central place. Why? ... Etc.

The solutions to the root causes, whatever they are, are, unfortunately, a lot more complex and expensive than adding lanes or tolls. However, knowing the root cause allows us to implement policies and laws that can incentivize behaviors to address the root cause in the long term.

For example, change zoning laws for a better mix of commercial and residential within smaller areas.

Increase the cost of vehicle registration or gas taxes to encourage workers to prefer jobs closer to their home. Tolls on major highways rather than smaller streets can be part of this.

Provide free public transit in areas that meet requirements of commercial/residential mix.

These are just ideas. I don't know the real root causes, but a single policy won't help unless it's part of a comprehensive plan to reduce the NEED to travel and travel long distances.

Re: To fix L.A.'s traffic, we need tolls

#308

Post by timthelion » Tue, Mar 07, 2017, 10:57 PM UTC

mschuster91 wrote: post #288

timthelion wrote: post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On 2) you say "which means you have two weeks of no service at all". Well in Prague, we just use busses when the tram line is being repaired. Its like a downgrade. "Oh, tracks are being worked on, I'll have to take the x6 bus rather than the 6 tram." It sucks, but its far better than using busses all the time ;). And of course, you might think that it is wastefull to have a host of busses just waiting around to be tu…

> Well in Prague, we just use busses when the tram line is being repaired. Its like a downgrade. Yeah, we do that in Munich too, but it sucks real hard. Especially when the replacement buses are also in the same traffic jam created by the construction site... and all the replacement buses cost big money these days, given that there are nowhere near enough bus drivers to serve the demand. ad 3) Yeah of course, but it'…

We made paper stickers reminding people that they are illegally parked and we place them on the wind sheild. If it rains, then the person will spend a good 15 minutes getting the gunk off.

Re: To fix L.A.'s traffic, we need tolls

#309

Post by svckr » Tue, Mar 07, 2017, 10:57 PM UTC

Try less, and smaller roads:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Braess'_paradox

Re: To fix L.A.'s traffic, we need tolls

#310

Post by xienze » Tue, Mar 07, 2017, 10:58 PM UTC

vkou wrote: post #273

duderific wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Driving and parking in New York is so incredibly difficult and expensive compared to mass transit, especially the subway. In the cities where that is the case, there isn't the same class division between those who drive and those who take mass transit. In LA, it is exactly the opposite: mass transit is incredibly difficult, slow, and in some cases more expensive than driving. How can you "make people of all socioecon…

Tear up all the parking lots, and half the roads. Or, actually, just tear up the parking lots. You can do it by taxing under-utilized land. It's obviously never going to happen, so people will keep spending ~$3-5,000/year on vehicles, and ~$1,000-2000/year on parking, for the dubious privilege of spending up to two hours a day in traffic. On the bright side, if you live that far from work, your housing is probably ch…

> On the bright side, if you live that far from work, your housing is probably cheap.

And that's exactly why things are the way they are. Shockingly, given the choice, most people would happily trade a long commute for the ability to spread out and not pay through the nose for the privilege of being crammed on top of other people.