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To fix L.A.'s traffic, we need tolls

latimes.com

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Re: To fix L.A.'s traffic, we need tolls

#291

Post by sqldba »

> But why are we willing to pay for electricity, gasoline or air travel, but not for roads?

Because we already pay for roads through taxes, and car registration fees, and drivers license fees! Meanwhile the money that gets put into tolls doesn't get returned to infrastructure we agree with. It goes into company pockets who then monopolise the roads for decades and providing awful service.

It also penalises the poor; everyone in a BMW/Audi can pay the tolls and travel in comfort but the rest of you need to go to cattle class in the bus. Ummm, subsidised by everyone else of course.

You don't get to make money off of the commons just because you're unhappy that - you know - commoners are using it "too much".

Re: To fix L.A.'s traffic, we need tolls

#292

Post by jedberg »

gph wrote: post #286
jedberg wrote: post #230

As an interesting aside, the CHP hates HOT lanes because they are very difficult to enforce. My friend is CHP and he says it's hard to read the lights as the cars pass and then make sure the car has a carpool in it if they skipped the toll.

I always thought HOV lanes were a bit of a joke during rush hour or traffic jams. It's nearly impossible to effectively enforce the rule and there's simply too many people willing to ignore the rule.

They work a little better in LA than elsewhere, but yeah. In LA they have solid lines, so if you see a cop and jump out, they can nail you for jumping the line.

Anywhere else, they can only nail you for the carpool violation if they catch you, but you aren't as suspicious as someone jumping a double yellow.

Re: To fix L.A.'s traffic, we need tolls

#293

Post by Pica_soO »

timthelion wrote: post #218
bit_logic wrote: post #109

The true solution to LA traffic will never happen. And that solution is buses. But not the current underfunded system that barely limps along. A massive number of buses, like 5x the current number. And combined with tolls for cars to get cars off the road. The large number of buses is critical because it greatly reduces wait time between transfers. It also allows adding express bus lines between major areas. But buse…

Do you have any experience with busses? Was that experience "great"? For example, have you lived in Hong Kong, which I understand is a Bus city? I live in Prague, and the trams are great. It is a 100% better experience than driving. Smooth, quiet, usually plenty of leg room. Doesn't smell. The busses, however, are hell. That low key vibration of the motor, the smell of the gass, the cramped spaces, the steps, all add…

Pragues transit system is very good.

I used to code on a bus-commute in germany, i honestly must say i liked it more then driving around in a car. Its quiet, you can focus, and its the perfect length to create a feature.

The problem with buses is they attract those who are no longer allowed to drive (alcoholics, drug-addicts) - but overall.

Maybe something like the african Matatu system for comuters would be ideal? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matatu

Re: To fix L.A.'s traffic, we need tolls

#294

Post by CodeWriter23 »

kazinator wrote: post #146

"To fix traffic, we need tolls" Tolls are just a form of paying people to go away (if you don't take the toll road, you're paid by getting to keep a few dollars in your pocket). It only reduces traffic for you if you are one of the ones that didn't go away. If the toll discouraged you, then the traffic problem isn't solved for you; you're taking a bunch of non-toll roads riddled with detours and intersections. We can…

The cost of vehicle ownership is a sizable toll people already pay. Even a beater is $300/mo. for insurance and maintenance, not counting the fuel. We've dumped our second car (2010) to shed about $900/mo. in insurance, maintenance and loan payments.

And then you've got this double-edged sword that Lyft is cheap enough to be competitive with vehicle ownership + parking (for commutes up to about 8 miles), and the Rideshare cars have automatic free access to the HOV lanes. So those people get to ride fast without removing a car from the road as the HOV program intends.

Re: To fix L.A.'s traffic, we need tolls

#295

Post by majormajor »

vkou wrote: post #273
duderific wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Driving and parking in New York is so incredibly difficult and expensive compared to mass transit, especially the subway. In the cities where that is the case, there isn't the same class division between those who drive and those who take mass transit. In LA, it is exactly the opposite: mass transit is incredibly difficult, slow, and in some cases more expensive than driving. How can you "make people of all socioecon…

Tear up all the parking lots, and half the roads. Or, actually, just tear up the parking lots. You can do it by taxing under-utilized land. It's obviously never going to happen, so people will keep spending ~$3-5,000/year on vehicles, and ~$1,000-2000/year on parking, for the dubious privilege of spending up to two hours a day in traffic. On the bright side, if you live that far from work, your housing is probably ch…

> On the bright side, if you live that far from work, your housing is probably cheap.

Yeah, your house probably cost ONLY 500k-1mil!

Re: To fix L.A.'s traffic, we need tolls

#296

Post by sqldba »

timthelion wrote: post #218
bit_logic wrote: post #109

The true solution to LA traffic will never happen. And that solution is buses. But not the current underfunded system that barely limps along. A massive number of buses, like 5x the current number. And combined with tolls for cars to get cars off the road. The large number of buses is critical because it greatly reduces wait time between transfers. It also allows adding express bus lines between major areas. But buse…

Do you have any experience with busses? Was that experience "great"? For example, have you lived in Hong Kong, which I understand is a Bus city? I live in Prague, and the trams are great. It is a 100% better experience than driving. Smooth, quiet, usually plenty of leg room. Doesn't smell. The busses, however, are hell. That low key vibration of the motor, the smell of the gass, the cramped spaces, the steps, all add…

I live in Australia. The last time I took a bus, many years ago now, a bunch of natives took turns urinating down the aisle and threatening to slit the throat of all the white passengers - which was just me and the driver. I live in one of the major cities.

After that I went out and bought a car and I get more than a little upset when anyone suggests people should be forced to do otherwise.

Re: To fix L.A.'s traffic, we need tolls

#297

Post by timthelion »

mschuster91 wrote: post #268
timthelion wrote: post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It may be cheeper to build, though that is questionable. It is cheeper only because it takes advantage of existing roadway, but if you factor in the root cost of all of the existing infrastructure it uses than there's not much of a difference in cost between steel+gravel and concrete is there? In any case, over time the price of the busses goes up steeply. You need to replace a bus after 20 years, where-as trams last…

> there's not much of a difference in cost between steel+gravel and concrete is there? There is a difference, because a pure asphalt track is easy to lay, and especially easy to rework. Train tracks, especially those running in asphalt (shared road between cars and trams), have a host of problems: 1) It's really expensive to build them - trains weigh a LOT and the rails need adequate foundations 2) It's really expens…

One real problem with Pragues tram system though, is that we use island stops (stops that are in the middle of the street, so you have to cross a lane to get to the tram stop). You can see why this is bad in this map of pedestrian collisions and deaths https://samizdat.maps.arcgis.com/apps/MapSeries/index.html?a... The blue and yellow bubbles are pedestrian injuries, the red ones deaths. You see that along the grey lines (tram lines) there are clumps of injuries and deaths, those are where the tram stops are. So far, we haven't found a great way to solve this, except to put fencing up to discourage people from jumping out into the street to catch the tram...

Re: To fix L.A.'s traffic, we need tolls

#298

Post by sanswork »

astrodust wrote: post #223
photojosh wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ditto for Quito, Ecuador: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trolleybuses_in_Quito I'm now back in Australia, and despairing because my small city is putting in a light rail solution when a bus rapid transit option would be so much cheaper, given our low ridership. But buses aren't cool. :(

Which city is doing LRT? These can be more cost-effective in the long run at certain ridership levels, plus they're usually a better experience for the passenger. Busses just plain suck.

http://www.metrolinx.com/en/projectsandprograms/transitexpan...

Re: To fix L.A.'s traffic, we need tolls

#299

Post by oftenwrong »

remarkEon wrote: post #135
dublinben wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Residential (and commercial) parking minimums need to be abolished. Set parking maximums if you must impose some rules, and then allow the market to settle on appropriate amount of parking for a new development.

I'm sure there's some research on this somewhere, but parking minimums have got to be one of the most distortive policies to ever emerge in urban planning.

This is pretty much the definitive book on the subject: https://www.amazon.com/dp/193236496X/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_awdb_NMZ...

Re: To fix L.A.'s traffic, we need tolls

#300

Post by Neliquat »

Kluny wrote: post #175
suyash wrote: post #164

"Nobody likes paying for anything they are used to getting for free, and freeway tolls are no exception. But why are we willing to pay for electricity, gasoline or air travel, but not for roads?" - The author has a false assumption here that roads are free, there are various forms of taxes you are paying to Gov (City, State, Fed) in forms of gasoline tax, DMV registration tax, federal income tax where your dollars ar…

I guess the way it is now, property taxes go into a common municipal budget and then a share gets put toward road maintenance, right? I wonder if it would work to reduce property taxes by the amount that's currently spent on roads, and replace it solely with tolls that go into a fund that is dedicated to road maintenance and nothing else. So taxes for everyone would fall by 43% or whatever it is, and only drivers wou…

So everyone but the wealthy (defined here as property owners in LA) still gets screwed?
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