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To fix L.A.'s traffic, we need tolls

latimes.com

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Re: To fix L.A.'s traffic, we need tolls

#231

The true solution to LA traffic will never happen. And that solution is buses. But not the current underfunded system that barely limps along. A massive number of buses, like 5x the current number. And combined with tolls for cars to get cars off the road. The large number of buses is critical because it greatly reduces wait time between transfers. It also allows adding express bus lines between major areas. But buse…

> And that solution is buses.

At once the singularly most politically and practically incorrect assessment of LA traffic issues. How did this get top comment?

I'll agree with you in one key way: it's less ridiculous than Elon Musk's obsession with tunnels. It's a lot less ridiculous than Nolan Bushnell's obsession with self driving cars. Both fundamentally don't get how far away those solutions are from meaningful implementation. More busses, critically, could be added tomorrow, if we wanted to.

Yet others have already pointed out that buses have a bad reputation. It's only partly because of poor performance like you say. I'll put it more plainly: Los Angeles is a deeply racially segregated city, in ways that the bourgeois in California rarely admit. It's a travesty but it's also reality.

And some people characterize bus reputation as a chicken and egg problem: good riders improve the reputation, but they won't get on board when the reputation is bad. Those commenters don't understand how deeply entrenched racial segregation is in Los Angeles and how naive they sound. They're comparing Los Angeles to cities like London and New York, with huge metro systems, repeating popular whataboutist memes. They don't realize that London and New York have merely had more time to develop segregation underground.

Busses have fundamental inefficiencies, like slow patrons, that are basically uncorrelated with the number of busses on the road. And like any transport, capacity tends to get filled. And then we've all seen simulations of how bus transport falls apart due to one vehicle on a line getting behind—called bunching up[1].

I wrote to LA Dept. of Transportation years ago[2], and they characterized the problem then (and now) as fundamentally political: "Such issues require legislation." California and Los Angeles have voting systems that are good for solving many kinds of issues, but transportation is not one of them.

In my opinion, increasing licensing requirements, like disqualifying many current drivers from using freeways or vehicles entirely, would at least reduce deaths on the road. [3, 4, 5] Fewer accidents, as a side effect, could reduce congestion.

[1] E.g. http://setosa.io/bus/ [2] https://gist.github.com/doctorpangloss/a71db50d371e914a5d4f5... [3] http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/118/1/56.short [4] http://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/198945 [5] http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0022437502...

Re: To fix L.A.'s traffic, we need tolls

#232
Before we ask about methods...has any American city ever fixed a traffic problem?

No, I'm serious: has any city in the US ever had traffic at some (bad) level, implemented some set of new policies, then had traffic drop substantially while maintaining the same population density (i.e. I won't count the abandonment of Detroit.) I certainly don't know of any, which makes me doubtful about anyone's proposals to fix traffic.

Re: To fix L.A.'s traffic, we need tolls

#233
post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a middle ground between buses and rail: building defacto rail lines by transforming far-left lanes and middle dividers into dedicated bus tracks and semipermanent bus stations. Urbanized (Gary Hustwit, 2011) highlights the TransMilenio bus system, which serves the city of Bogota. It specifically covers elevating the experience and status of taking the bus by adopting positive aspects of rail systems: covered…

Bus themed solutions would definitely be an improvement over LA's status quo. However a better idea would be to reduce the need to travel long distances by building denser. LA roads are super wide right now, so the easiest way to raise density would be by putting buildings in the middle of the road, leaving a Really Narrow Street (tm) along either side. Ground floors of new buildings could be commercial, upper floors…

Here's hoping that NY, LA, and other major US cities adopt "Old Parisian" urban planning methods. Wishful thinking.

Re: To fix L.A.'s traffic, we need tolls

#234
post #10

The article falsely assumes that the HOV lane has spare capacity. During rush hour here all lanes are equally clogged, and sometimes the HOV lane is actually slower than the other 4 lanes. The only way to fix LA traffic with current infrastructure is self driving car pools. If/when they can get to the point in which they are safer than normal drivers, and safe for the riders (crime inside of self driving cars) LA tra…

If the HOV lane is gridlocked, that means the price to use the HOV lane is not high enough. Keep raising the toll until traffic in the HOV lane moves at the desired speed.

They set a max price on those lanes because otherwise poor people would get stuck in even worse traffic while rich people would be able to move quickly. That's already true but they are trying to minimize the disparity between rich and poor.

Re: To fix L.A.'s traffic, we need tolls

#235

The true solution to LA traffic will never happen. And that solution is buses. But not the current underfunded system that barely limps along. A massive number of buses, like 5x the current number. And combined with tolls for cars to get cars off the road. The large number of buses is critical because it greatly reduces wait time between transfers. It also allows adding express bus lines between major areas. But buse…

Can someone comment on how well buses work in Seoul? It struck me that it's a major form of transit there with a ton of buses passing by the stops.

Re: To fix L.A.'s traffic, we need tolls

#236
Tolls do little suppress traffic. They do a lot to divert it as people seek to avoid the toll, as Sydney discovered stupidly when it tried to use road closures to force traffic through privately built inefficient roads (public-private partnerships might as well have been rewritten as "legal corruption").

Re: To fix L.A.'s traffic, we need tolls

#237

The true solution to LA traffic will never happen. And that solution is buses. But not the current underfunded system that barely limps along. A massive number of buses, like 5x the current number. And combined with tolls for cars to get cars off the road. The large number of buses is critical because it greatly reduces wait time between transfers. It also allows adding express bus lines between major areas. But buse…

You might like Sao Paulo. Its like LA but smelly-er and full of buses. In Sao Paulo there's no need to hurry to hop on your bus before it leaves the stop because another one will arrive immediately. Same deal with the metro. Trains arrive and depart every 90 seconds during rush hour. Do an image search for tráfego em sao paulo site:.br if you're curious how that's working out for them. I like this one: http://f.i.uol…

Hmmm ... given the current state of the government in Brazil https://www.ft.com/content/17bd7ffa-3944-11e6-9a05-82a9b15a8...), I wonder how much longer the government can sustain a mass transit system that runs that frequently?

Re: To fix L.A.'s traffic, we need tolls

#238
post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Buses in the LA region have a bad reputation because of other bus passengers. If you ride the bus you might have to sit next to someone who smells bad or plays loud music or acts out in inappropriate ways. That's why everyone who can afford it drives their own car: to be alone. The reputation would improve if they could get more "regular" people riding, but it's kind of a chicken-or-the-egg problem.

If it's a 20 minute commute by bus, or a 1hr commute by car then it's easy. You don't care what the next guy smells like. Or if the first 2h pay of your day is used to pay for parking, then a bus ticket is attractive.

Problem is, in LA at least, the bus and the car are about the same amount of time. Maybe a smidge longer for the bus. So most people that can afford to will take a car to avoid the cranksters, shockingly rude bus patrons, and the chance of a 'piss bus' on their way home.

Re: To fix L.A.'s traffic, we need tolls

#239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

LA is getting better with mass transit. The problem is it's not running 24 hours. It shuts down around 1am so you it's not really good for doing things at night like in NYC. Also, there's a TON of crazy people riding, literal homeless crazy people, or kind of thuggish people. There needs to be some sort of loitering code enforcement on the train along with more security. I feel uncomfortable as a dude, I bet women fe…

> Also, there's a TON of crazy people riding, literal homeless crazy people This is pretty true. I'm an occasional metro/bus rider, and I'd guess I've been on more rides where there's someone with a clear mental health issue than rides without. And while most of those occasions it's benign, something everyone can ignore... for enough of them it's been intense enough people on the car/bus have been clearly uncomfortab…

When the system is used mainly by society's outliers, this is what you see. When most everyone uses the bus/train/library, this problem - while still existing - is greatly reduced by having a very much lower outlier ratio.

Re: To fix L.A.'s traffic, we need tolls

#240

One of my favorite little-known tidbits of Los Angeles traffic history is the Alweg monorail proposal in 1963. The Alweg Monorail Company offered to finance and build a 43 mile monorail system, which would be repaid with MTA revenues. The proposal got derailed when Standard Oil lobbied heavily against it. I'm convinced that if this proposal had gotten approved and built, the trajectory of public transportation in Los…

Wow, thank you for this.

What a shame it wasn't built.

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