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To fix L.A.'s traffic, we need tolls

latimes.com

91–100 of 689 posts

Re: To fix L.A.'s traffic, we need tolls

#91
> And yet we miss that this very same, simple system of pricing could solve our congestion problem.

This article is really bad. The above line is one of the worst.

People don't clog-up the freeways because they are having a good time. Nobody wants to be on them. I drive the 405 with some frequency. It's hell. I don't want to be on it. But I have to. Just like everyone else on it.

We have to be on the damn roads because of where work takes us. I have clients and contracts that require me to traverse this pathway. Others are employed by companies in the Downtown LA to Santa Monica corridor. They don't have a choice. They have to be on that hellish road. People can't just quit and move to greener pastures, at least not at scale.

Elon Musk and his quest for tunneling are now used as examples of the frustration. Well, SpaceX didn't need to be in Hawthorne. The company has, what, 7,000 employees? That general area (anything around the 405) is hell for traffic. SpaceX could have been out towards Ontario, in Mojave or farther north or south somewhere. There are no inherently magical reasons for building a company with 7,000 employees in Hawthorne other than perhaps the availability of large buildings and amicable zoning and regulatory frameworks.

Not picking on SpaceX, simply using it as an example. The problem with Los Angeles is this mass of businesses concentrated in that corridor. It attracts tens of thousands (hundreds of thousands?) of people driving in from within a 50 mile radius in every direction. This is the problem.

Tolls are not going to fix this. They would only punish folks who would have no choice but to pay-up and continue to go to work.

And carpool? Carpool is a joke. Carpool lanes only serve to waste 20 to 25% of the road's capacity. The vast majority of users are those who are not carpooling at all. For example, when we load-up the family in the car to go somewhere. In other words, no appreciable number of cars are removed from the road. Why don't people carpool? Because people are sprawled all over the place and it is utterly inconvenient. If you can find just one person who lives near you who can carpool you still lose freedom. What if you need to leave work early or go late because your kids are sick? I can't even think of one person I know who carpools.

My opinion is that LA would benefit greatly from providing tax incentives and the appropriate zoning and infrastructure support to decentralize the centers of employment. Give companies 10 years without taxes (NY state style) to either move or start-up on the outskirts of Los Angeles proper in every direction. Change traffic patterns this way and traffic will improve.

The rest will come with time. Autonomous vehicles will change the nature of traffic in potentially significant ways.

Until then it's going to suck more with each passing year until it starts to get better.

Re: To fix L.A.'s traffic, we need tolls

#93
post #34

LOL the same arguments where used in Sweden, Stockholm and Gothenburg, worked for a few months, the traffic is worse again. It was just a great lie for the the public to finance other prestige projects.

I would love to see some reporting on this statement

Houston has flex tolling on it's main lanes. On our biggest freeway with 10+ lanes in each direction two are dedicated to tolling with a price that ranges from $1 to $8 each way.

During peak hours the $8 toll makes almost no difference. The lanes remain just as jammed and on average you only save 5-10 minutes (less than 10% of the drive time) over the total length of the tollway.

Obviously this isn't exactly scientific reporting but the toll road authority in Houston is big business to the tune of 700 million/year in toll fees. They won't facilitate access to data if it results in a negative impression.

Re: To fix L.A.'s traffic, we need tolls

#94
post #77

Problem with LA is that we build horizontally and not vertically. We keep adding more homes in suburbs and not building up in the cities that have the jobs. There's a big anti growth movement preventing high density housing. They have been successful in preventing high density projects like the Bergamot transit village(on a rail line too). Today we're voting on initiative that prevents large scale developments. If it…

But why is this the case? Largely because land use (powerful local zoning + low holding costs for land) incentivizes sprawl over infill.

Consider cities that do better for transit by building upward. This is usually a case of a more sane zoning system, like in Tokyo[0], or ownership residing in the municipality, like Hong Kong.[1]

[0] http://urbankchoze.blogspot.com/2014/04/japanese-zoning.html [1] http://www.hkclic.org/en/topics/saleAndPurchaseOfProperty/ba...

Re: To fix L.A.'s traffic, we need tolls

#95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. You are thinking about it wrong. By making it cost prohibitive for the poors to move around we will be able to concentrate their populations into designated "bottom feeder" neighborhoods allowing us to more effectively rob them of basic public services like education, healthcare, and potable water.

> By making it cost prohibitive for the poors to move around Am I the only person who found the phrase 'the poors' offensive? I'm genuinely asking.

I figured this comment carried enough satire to not need explanation. He was using an offensive tone to carry over the implicated apathy that city planning has on the impoverished.

Re: To fix L.A.'s traffic, we need tolls

#96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would love to see some reporting on this statement

Houston has flex tolling on it's main lanes. On our biggest freeway with 10+ lanes in each direction two are dedicated to tolling with a price that ranges from $1 to $8 each way. During peak hours the $8 toll makes almost no difference. The lanes remain just as jammed and on average you only save 5-10 minutes (less than 10% of the drive time) over the total length of the tollway. Obviously this isn't exactly scientif…

> Obviously this isn't exactly scientific reporting

It doesn't need to be. Link to the local paper. There's a lot of misinformation being used today. It's not new, but we have the resources to verify things now. We need due diligence, not pontification.

Re: To fix L.A.'s traffic, we need tolls

#97
post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

LA is getting better with mass transit. The problem is it's not running 24 hours. It shuts down around 1am so you it's not really good for doing things at night like in NYC. Also, there's a TON of crazy people riding, literal homeless crazy people, or kind of thuggish people. There needs to be some sort of loitering code enforcement on the train along with more security. I feel uncomfortable as a dude, I bet women fe…

Almost no cities have 24 hour mass transit including many that are considered to have good transit systems. That's a very high bar you're setting.

24hr service would be very expensive, but it seems that they should run the transit services until a little after the majority of bars and clubs close. It was nice here in Boston when they ran the T until a little past 2AM; they've since pulled that back to 12:30 or so. It can be kind of a pain, but Uber/Lyft are well established here.

Re: To fix L.A.'s traffic, we need tolls

#98
I moved to LA about a year ago from DC, where the traffic is notoriously bad as well, and I have to say that LA traffic is leaps and bounds worse. I've never seen gridlock like this where you literally DO NOT MOVE. In DC, you'll move maybe a couple inches here and there, maybe average 2-5 MPH in a gridlock. Here, you sit completely still. When you're up to turn left, there's not even room to turn in because everyone jammed the cross section because they've been behind that same like for 30 minutes. I basically just use delivery services for any thing between 4-7pm

Re: To fix L.A.'s traffic, we need tolls

#99
post #10

The article falsely assumes that the HOV lane has spare capacity. During rush hour here all lanes are equally clogged, and sometimes the HOV lane is actually slower than the other 4 lanes. The only way to fix LA traffic with current infrastructure is self driving car pools. If/when they can get to the point in which they are safer than normal drivers, and safe for the riders (crime inside of self driving cars) LA tra…

This sounds like the HOV lane is not priced appropriately during rush hour traffic. Up the price and it should get better.

Re: To fix L.A.'s traffic, we need tolls

#100

I doubt this has any effect, rich people don't care, poor people can't afford to move somewhere else. Public transport is the only effective approach to reducing the congestion.

Well, letting people build homes near jobs so the distances traveled are shorter (or walked, or cycled) also helps.

So, change jobs and buy/sell your house?

Switching costs are high, even as rentors. (Moving Costs, Deposits)

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