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Amazon to hand over Echo audio from alleged murder after defendant consents

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Re: Amazon to hand over Echo audio from alleged murder after defendant consents

#111

Post by Klathmon »

shostack wrote: post #86
Klathmon wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes and for all you know that table you bought could include a large battery, LTE receiver, and a microphone and could be recording your every sound as well. There's a limit to how much paranoia is warranted, and in this case I'm firmly in the "it's not" column. Yes, it could be recording your every sound for months on end and uploading it to evil amazon, but not only would they be in some hot water legally in some a…

The comparison between a bugged table and a device whose primary purpose is to always be listening to you is a bit of a stretch, don't you think? Amazon provides cloud storage and processing to the web. Given their history of relatively ruthless (if strategically smart) business moves, I don't think it is unreasonable to consider that they could store this data for use down the line or do so at government request. Th…

To be completely honest, the "save this at government request" is a real threat, but there is nothing that amazon can realistically do to prevent that (short of physically not manufacturing the device to have a microphone, but even then is it that much of a jump from "forcing them to write code" to "forcing them to add a microphone"?)

But in terms of adding this kind of surveillance stuff for greed? I just don't see it paying off. Regardless of how shady or ruthless you think amazon is, they aren't going to brazenly break 1-party and 2-party listening laws. And all it takes is one guy somewhere who owns one to discover it and it's all over.

People are more than willing to give up information for very little gain, there's no reason to try and "steal" it illegally. If the argument is that amazon is a greedy company willing to do unethical things for money, where's the money in this? Where's the money in 24/7 audio recordings vs recordings of when you are speaking to the thing?

Re: Amazon to hand over Echo audio from alleged murder after defendant consents

#112

Post by ynniv »

squarefoot wrote: post #107
ynniv wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't have a link, but the echo doesn't transmit network data until the watchword is detected. It probably has a small local buffer, but not large enough to be useful here. So I expect that an unmodified echo would not provide historical evidence, but there's probably a way for one to be configured to stream audio continuously.

Unfortunately the only way to check if the above is true would be by examining the device firmware. Also, the definition of "unmodified" and "configured" is very broad in this context. There's no need for a screwdriver or messing with a JTAG port when a well hidden magic packet coming from the Internet can trigger a watchword=off function.

Right, but this is a targeted action that can only be applied to a limited number of people without causing problems for Amazon. It's not useful when something unexpected happened and there was an echo present.

Re: Amazon to hand over Echo audio from alleged murder after defendant consents

#113

Post by mikeash »

koolba wrote: post #3

This should be a lesson to people who don't understand the distinction between "can't" and "won't". If you're running things yourself and control the encryption keys required to access your data, then your service provider can't be compelled to release your data as it's not possible[1][2]. If you're delegating all of that to your service provider and they have access to the raw data, then you are putting all your tru…

That's a good lesson, but I don't see how this example teaches it. The defendant consented to releasing the information. If Echo were designed to give the user total control over the encryption keys required to access their data, they still could have consented.

Re: Amazon to hand over Echo audio from alleged murder after defendant consents

#114

Post by dandelion_lover »

SmellyGeekBoy wrote: post #91
LordKano wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are too many checkers players in a chess world. They're attempting to establish the precedent today. Tomorrow(figurative, not literal), when such devices send everything to the cloud to be processed "To reduce false positives", there will be much more data to mine. I won't have one of these devices in my house. I won't have an xbone in my house for the same reason. Today, they're not much of a threat to privacy…

So you don't have a smartphone?

Reducing the attack surface is already a good defense, even if you have a smartphone:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defense_in_depth_%28computing%...

Re: Amazon to hand over Echo audio from alleged murder after defendant consents

#115

Post by TallGuyShort »

phantarch wrote: post #89
TallGuyShort wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Comparing it to a tape recorder is interesting. If we consider this device to be the same as a tape recorder for the purpose of admission of evidence: (1) In some states, by having this device and turning it on you have now indeed consented for the conversation to be recorded - which would alarm most users (2) In other states, it is illegal for the device to be functioning without consent of all who are conversing, a…

Thanks for the insight. In regards to comparing new technologies against previous ones to understand their legal definitions, it feels like the burden is on technologists to navigate us through the ethical minefield. I'm not very aware of what place ethicists have in many tech corporations, but it feels like most of us just build straight ahead and figure out the implications afterward. Not that we should halt progre…

Definitely. I think I've heard Google has a handful of ethicists on staff? I don't think it's fair for the burden to be entirely on technologists either, though, but I don't know how else to progress. Uber & friends make an interesting case in this area too: Does that business model technically violate laws in various locales? Is it fair to existing taxi companies to just throw those laws away too quickly for them to plan or without re-addressing the original issue they were there for? Could they get lawmakers to re-assess the need for those laws before they had demonstrated their value and popularity? A lot of catch-22's.

Re: Amazon to hand over Echo audio from alleged murder after defendant consents

#116

Post by [deleted] »

saycheese wrote: post #85
rayiner wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It depends. If you delete all data after a year pursuant to a well established practice, the court should not be able to hold you in contempt. But if your explanation smacks of destruction of evidence, then you've got a problem. Remember, it's not about what you did, in fact (the judge and the prosecutor can't know that). It's about what the circumstantial suggests you did.

Just to be clear, my assumption was the jurisdiction was US federal law, the entity deleting the data was an individual, the data was their data, and the systems deleting the data were owned by them; this based on the context as I understood it provided by the comment I replied to of this thread. As such, would you please explain why you provide a timeframe for keeping the data prior to deleting it?

[deleted]

Re: Amazon to hand over Echo audio from alleged murder after defendant consents

#117

Post by rayiner »

scotch_drinker wrote: post #108
saycheese wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just to be clear, my assumption was the jurisdiction was US federal law, the entity deleting the data was an individual, the data was their data, and the systems deleting the data were owned by them; this based on the context as I understood it provided by the comment I replied to of this thread. As such, would you please explain why you provide a timeframe for keeping the data prior to deleting it?

I think he's saying "If you have a policy of deleting your data older than X, you are OK." You have to be able to prove that well before being asked for the data, you had a policy that resulted in it being deleted. Where I work, we delete emails older than 6 months as a company policy. I have to assume this is done for exactly this reason. Don't ask why we might want to do that, I'm not in charge. :-)

Right. It's about insulating yourself from the accusation that you deleted that data to cover up wrongdoing, rather than for other reasons.

Re: Amazon to hand over Echo audio from alleged murder after defendant consents

#118

Post by JetSpiegel »

ahallock wrote: post #94
npongratz wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not certain there exists nothing to reveal. Is there a technical limitation of the system that prevents or avoids recording of "non-'Alexa'" audio? Or do I just trust Amazon when they say their alway-on device only records when triggered with the magic word? As I think about it, I'd ask the same regarding the voice-controllable phone in my pocket. FWIW, I don't trust the devices, because their operations are out…

If it's true that all audio is being sent to Amazon, I will throw my Echo out today. That's a serious invasion of privacy and breach of trust.

The entire point of the Echo and similar devices is that it's always listening.

Re: Amazon to hand over Echo audio from alleged murder after defendant consents

#119

Post by jsudhams »

shostack wrote: post #86
Klathmon wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes and for all you know that table you bought could include a large battery, LTE receiver, and a microphone and could be recording your every sound as well. There's a limit to how much paranoia is warranted, and in this case I'm firmly in the "it's not" column. Yes, it could be recording your every sound for months on end and uploading it to evil amazon, but not only would they be in some hot water legally in some a…

The comparison between a bugged table and a device whose primary purpose is to always be listening to you is a bit of a stretch, don't you think? Amazon provides cloud storage and processing to the web. Given their history of relatively ruthless (if strategically smart) business moves, I don't think it is unreasonable to consider that they could store this data for use down the line or do so at government request. Th…

Your android alarm app or iOS app could to be listening and uploading as well. So...
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