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Amazon to hand over Echo audio from alleged murder after defendant consents

bbc.com

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Re: Amazon to hand over Echo audio from alleged murder after defendant consents

#91

Post by SmellyGeekBoy »

LordKano wrote: post #72
wyldfire wrote: post #47

This is a non-issue. The audio Amazon receives is from only-just-barely-before the wakeword up to and through the command or timeout expiration. Yes, it's possible that the defendants cat meowed right before the murder and it sounded like "Alexa". But it seems incredibly unlikely. Prosecutors are just trying to cover every base but the likelihood that this will yield anything is very low.

There are too many checkers players in a chess world. They're attempting to establish the precedent today. Tomorrow(figurative, not literal), when such devices send everything to the cloud to be processed "To reduce false positives", there will be much more data to mine. I won't have one of these devices in my house. I won't have an xbone in my house for the same reason. Today, they're not much of a threat to privacy…

So you don't have a smartphone?

Re: Amazon to hand over Echo audio from alleged murder after defendant consents

#92

Post by SmellyGeekBoy »

shshhdhs wrote: post #20
tribune wrote: post #16

I own an Echo and this is part of the reason it now sits unplugged. To be honest, it doesn't provide enough value for me to consider potentially compromising the privacy of my home.

Mentioned this in another comment, but they can only reveal voice data IF the victim said "Alexa" when the crime was taking place. If the victim didn't say "Alexa" that day, then there's nothing to reveal.

The main thing I'm taking away from this is that, if I ever find myself getting murdered, I'll just keep shouting "Alexa" as a last ditch attempt at getting justice from beyond the grave. Can't hurt.

Re: Amazon to hand over Echo audio from alleged murder after defendant consents

#93

Post by ynniv »

npongratz wrote: post #46
shshhdhs wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They can only reveal voice data IF the victim said "Alexa" when the crime was taking place. If the victim didn't say "Alexa" that day, then there's nothing to reveal. Your example about encryption doesn't make sense in the context of the Echo.

I'm not certain there exists nothing to reveal. Is there a technical limitation of the system that prevents or avoids recording of "non-'Alexa'" audio? Or do I just trust Amazon when they say their alway-on device only records when triggered with the magic word? As I think about it, I'd ask the same regarding the voice-controllable phone in my pocket. FWIW, I don't trust the devices, because their operations are out…

I don't have a link, but the echo doesn't transmit network data until the watchword is detected. It probably has a small local buffer, but not large enough to be useful here. So I expect that an unmodified echo would not provide historical evidence, but there's probably a way for one to be configured to stream audio continuously.

Re: Amazon to hand over Echo audio from alleged murder after defendant consents

#94

Post by ahallock »

npongratz wrote: post #46
shshhdhs wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They can only reveal voice data IF the victim said "Alexa" when the crime was taking place. If the victim didn't say "Alexa" that day, then there's nothing to reveal. Your example about encryption doesn't make sense in the context of the Echo.

I'm not certain there exists nothing to reveal. Is there a technical limitation of the system that prevents or avoids recording of "non-'Alexa'" audio? Or do I just trust Amazon when they say their alway-on device only records when triggered with the magic word? As I think about it, I'd ask the same regarding the voice-controllable phone in my pocket. FWIW, I don't trust the devices, because their operations are out…

If it's true that all audio is being sent to Amazon, I will throw my Echo out today. That's a serious invasion of privacy and breach of trust.

Re: Amazon to hand over Echo audio from alleged murder after defendant consents

#95

Post by sib »

izacus wrote: post #40
phantarch wrote: post #7

How is echo audio data substantially different than something like a tape recorder that was live in the man's home? What about a cell phone that was on a call at the time of the alleged murder? I definitely understand wanting to ensure reasonable privacy for users, but to me it feels an awful lot of a stretch to say that the echo is off-limits in this case.

> How is echo audio data substantially different than something like a tape recorder that was live in the man's home? What about a cell phone that was on a call at the time of the alleged murder? It's not about the technology - a tape recorder isn't on the whole time while it's in your house and won't get accidentally turned on by you speaking. Alexa is listening the whole time and gets triggered even for non-standar…

Just to clarify: The Echo - the hardware - is processing audio constantly to spot the wake word. Alexa - the cloud software - is definitely not "listening the whole time." Yes, the wake word spotting may occasionally trip a false positive, in which case the lights go on (and you can set it to also make a sound any time it wakes, if you prefer.)

Re: Amazon to hand over Echo audio from alleged murder after defendant consents

#96

Post by 6stringmerc »

wyldfire wrote: post #47

This is a non-issue. The audio Amazon receives is from only-just-barely-before the wakeword up to and through the command or timeout expiration. Yes, it's possible that the defendants cat meowed right before the murder and it sounded like "Alexa". But it seems incredibly unlikely. Prosecutors are just trying to cover every base but the likelihood that this will yield anything is very low.

Though the article stipulates the Echo was streaming something (music?) at the time - which could infer more 'active' attention - I also think this is more of a fishing expedition. I have serious doubts that the Echo recorded anything of value. I base this perspective of having numerous interactions with Echo devices and observing how routinely poor they are at listening in even completely silent rooms.

I enjoy the devices, but also scoff at the "OMG CSI TECH ENHANCE!!" spin that can kind of find its way into discussions via less-than-knowledgeable journalists. Or ones who want to amp it up. Whatever the case, I think it's kind of interesting to hear about.

I do pity the audio tech who might have to get the audio file, put it in a DAW and turn it all the way up to listen for, uh, evidence. Ouch.

Re: Amazon to hand over Echo audio from alleged murder after defendant consents

#97

Post by jessaustin »

tonylemesmer wrote: post #76
shshhdhs wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They can only reveal voice data IF the victim said "Alexa" when the crime was taking place. If the victim didn't say "Alexa" that day, then there's nothing to reveal. Your example about encryption doesn't make sense in the context of the Echo.

I happen to have met the hardware engineers who developed the chipset and microphone array PCB inside the Echo and they told me there is no recording unless the trigger word is detected. I saw no evidence to prove or disprove this and there's nothing to say that the device couldn't be altered after installation. [edited: grammar]

Once upon a time this behavior would have been determined by hardware. For a device developed this decade, however, there's no way that a PCB design would determine this. Rather, this behavior is determined by the firmware loaded onto the microcontroller.

Even if one didn't know that, the fact that the trigger word is easily changed by the user should indicate that everything is in software.

Re: Amazon to hand over Echo audio from alleged murder after defendant consents

#98

Post by diminoten »

josefresco wrote: post #41
danielsamuels wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Without trying being rude, surely this was obvious before you purchased it?

Also, your phone is probably already listening to you - and maybe your cable box.

Hell, most speakers can conceivably be used to record audio.

Re: Amazon to hand over Echo audio from alleged murder after defendant consents

#99

Post by mcphage »

LordKano wrote: post #72
wyldfire wrote: post #47

This is a non-issue. The audio Amazon receives is from only-just-barely-before the wakeword up to and through the command or timeout expiration. Yes, it's possible that the defendants cat meowed right before the murder and it sounded like "Alexa". But it seems incredibly unlikely. Prosecutors are just trying to cover every base but the likelihood that this will yield anything is very low.

There are too many checkers players in a chess world. They're attempting to establish the precedent today. Tomorrow(figurative, not literal), when such devices send everything to the cloud to be processed "To reduce false positives", there will be much more data to mine. I won't have one of these devices in my house. I won't have an xbone in my house for the same reason. Today, they're not much of a threat to privacy…

> They're attempting to establish the precedent today.

At least this situation didn't give them the precedent; the defendant consented, so the court never got the ability to demand it from Amazon.

Re: Amazon to hand over Echo audio from alleged murder after defendant consents

#100

Post by diminoten »

SmellyGeekBoy wrote: post #92
shshhdhs wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mentioned this in another comment, but they can only reveal voice data IF the victim said "Alexa" when the crime was taking place. If the victim didn't say "Alexa" that day, then there's nothing to reveal.

The main thing I'm taking away from this is that, if I ever find myself getting murdered, I'll just keep shouting "Alexa" as a last ditch attempt at getting justice from beyond the grave. Can't hurt.

I was thinking about this -- I'm too afraid to try it, but if I said, "Alexa call 911", does that functionality exist?

Is there a skill I can install that would let me say something like, "Alexa start recording audio to the cloud"?

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