Silicon Valley programmers pressure friends to quit working at Uber • Hacker News Board

Re: Silicon Valley programmers pressure friends to quit working at Uber

#61

Post by synicalx » Tue, Mar 07, 2017, 4:31 AM UTC

cjensen wrote: post #55

synicalx wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Quitting doesn't mean losing your house. You are being silly. Excuse me? I spent the first 4 years of my working life doing debt negotiation with banks and other creditors on behalf of people on the verge of bankruptcy. It was my responsibility to negotiated and broker payment arrangements, debt consolidation, and financial plans for probably thousands of people over those years so I've got a pretty bloody good ide…

If you work for Uber and can't find a new job in this market, you either aren't trying or aren't qualified. We aren't talking about hypothetical people on the verge of bankruptcy here who we have constructed from first principles. We're talking about people who have somehow managed to buy a house within commute range of Uber SF. If quitting means losing the house, they've done something very very wrong.

So you think;

1. Everyone at Uber is amazingly qualified and sought after (but you won't hire them of course) 2. Everyone at Uber works in San Fran (my local Uber office must be a scam then!) 3. No one at Uber has any financial issues (company sponsored financial advice maybe?)

Tell me, if an Uber driver spends $97k on a car, and then goes bankrupt, is that his fault or Uber's?

Re: Silicon Valley programmers pressure friends to quit working at Uber

#62

Post by remarkEon » Tue, Mar 07, 2017, 4:38 AM UTC

cjensen wrote: post #57

remarkEon wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're assuming a freedom of movement between employers that I think is a little bold, and you're coming across as a little flippant of someone's personal situation. I think that's odd and a little demeaning. Plenty of other companies have been sanctioned in the past for wrong-doing, and I think it's somewhat silly to write-off anyone who worked there after the sanctions. "Basic logic and common sense" would lead one…

I'm being flippant regarding people's flippant dismissal of the pervasive culture of discrimination in their own company? No. No I am not. This is a serious matter. The only thing unserious is the insistence of some that being asked to leave an immoral job is demeaning.

Do you actually think that, just by nature of working there, everyone condones sexual harassment? That's a pretty far-reaching assumption about individual agency. The reality is that it's unserious, and frankly immature, to declare that all those who work at Uber after some arbitrary date are undesirables lacking in basic morality. I won't do that, but you're free to engage in those kinds of preconceptions.

Cheers.

Re: Silicon Valley programmers pressure friends to quit working at Uber

#63

Post by synicalx » Tue, Mar 07, 2017, 4:41 AM UTC

DougN7 wrote: post #60

synicalx wrote: post #33

What even goes through these people's heads when they post crap like this? Do they really, genuinely, expect people to quit what is probably a secure and well paying job, because they've decided they don't like Uber any more? Have we really reached this level of arrogance? Financial and family responsibilities be damned! I read a news article that said Uber didn't give everyone participation awards and gold stars! Wh…

The internet (and social justice warriors in particular) are a huge example of group think/mobs today. It's impossible to predict what the hot button topic will be in six months, but I guarantee everyone will act like it's always been an obviously major issue. Even though nobody thinks so now.

You should check out a little book call 'Conspicuous Compassion' by Patrick West - he elaborates on your second point there quite eloquently. Also it's just straight up hilarious in parts, to this day I still ask people if they've ever worn a 'Brown Ribbon'.

Re: Silicon Valley programmers pressure friends to quit working at Uber

#64

Post by jimmywanger » Tue, Mar 07, 2017, 4:43 AM UTC

kristianc wrote: post #17

jimmywanger wrote: post #10

I think it bears repeating that there has been no hard evidence turned up in any of this. Even the single non-anonymous story doesn't have any corroborating evidence or records, and the charges of "investigation" and "harassment" have been only reported by the original reporter of the story. The fallout has been that somebody has been let go after non-substantiated rumors about his activities at a previous employer,…

> Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof That phrase was originally invoked to describe telekinesis. I'm not sure 'Silicon Valley company has problem with female employees' falls into that category.

Comparing the claims that have been made to be equivalent to 'Silicon Valley company has problem with female employees' is like saying that the maiden voyage of the Titanic did not go as planned, or Michael Jordan was a pretty good basketball player.

Talking about one particular conversation is one thing, alleging a pattern of sexual abuse and systemic harassment that completely crosses all lines for everybody is something entirely else.

Re: Silicon Valley programmers pressure friends to quit working at Uber

#65

Post by jimmywanger » Tue, Mar 07, 2017, 4:50 AM UTC

cjensen wrote: post #32

redthrowaway wrote: post #22

So, progressives in SV have moved from trying to get you fired if you say something they don't like on twitter, to pressuring you to quit your job if an accusation is made against somebody at your company. Great. This couldn't possibly end poorly.

This isn't about saying something someone doesn't like. This is about unlawful behavior which, from the outside, appears to pervade the entirety of Uber.

> This is about unlawful behavior

You're assuming unlawful behavior already. Nice frame.

It's allegations of unlawful behavior, unsubstantiated by evidence and untried by court. You're ready to tar and feather an entire group of people based on no hard evidence? Quick look over there! There's somebody who read Das Kapital, him and all his friends must be communists.

This sort of virtue signaling has gone on for too long. You're competing with each other for who can ostracize people the most based on unsubstantiated claims.

Re: Silicon Valley programmers pressure friends to quit working at Uber

#66

Post by jimmywanger » Tue, Mar 07, 2017, 4:53 AM UTC

goseeastarwar wrote: post #44

redthrowaway wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Those that wish to distract from the industry's systemic issues insist on evidence. Insisting on evidence is verboten. On HN. I'm quickly growing tired of this place.

Much of this thread is people arguing this is embellished, untrue, the cost of doing business, or a conspiracy. Not to fear, I think your side of nonsense is safely represented. * the evidence pedant corrected my spelling

> imbellished

*embellished.

> untrue

We don't know whether the claims are true one way or another. What we do know for certain is that the claim has affected many people's careers and the financial success of a large company.

If these claims are proven true, punish those responsible. If they're not true, punish those who harmed the lives and reputation of others.

Re: Silicon Valley programmers pressure friends to quit working at Uber

#67

Post by goseeastarwar » Tue, Mar 07, 2017, 4:56 AM UTC

flukus wrote: post #59

goseeastarwar wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's really not when you realize these aren't extraordinary claims. Those that wish to distract from the industry's systemic issues insist on evidence.

> Those that wish to distract from the industry's systemic issues insist on evidence Yes, because it would be nice to know if it really was a systemic issue before wasting time and energy fixing it. "It's totally an issue, trust me" isn't worth acting on.

How many accounts of harassment do you need to believe there's a problem, out of curiosity?

Nearly every woman in the industry has a story to tell, most say nothing. You'd know that if you'd bother to speak to any.

Re: Silicon Valley programmers pressure friends to quit working at Uber

#68

Post by jimmywanger » Tue, Mar 07, 2017, 4:56 AM UTC

yifanlu wrote: post #9

zxcvvcxz wrote: post #3

So much is happening so fast in the name of bad publicity directed at Uber. Is anyone else cynically suspecting a coordinated hit? I don't doubt there's a toxic culture with real problems present. But the timing and sustained pressure of all this media attention seems a little... suspicious. I also think back to the anonymously written Medium piece after the first one [1]. There is literally no way to verify this, an…

Occam's razor. Is it a giant conspiracy coordinated by some Other Entity with Power and Influence able to manipulate NYT as well as Google to maximize the impact of their destructive forces? Or... because of all the bad publicity and Uber being in the limelight, those who were already feel uncomfortable about what they saw finally got the initiative to speak out... and the news media finds the story hot enough to pub…

> those who were already feel uncomfortable about what they saw finally got the initiative to speak out...

Or those who saw a cash rich company desperately trying to stop an avalanche of bad publicity felt as though they had a chance to either make some money or get some publicity on the situation by piling on?

I doubt very much that any journalist right now would turn down a story bashing Uber, because they're an easy target and those hit pieces will get eyeballs.

Re: Silicon Valley programmers pressure friends to quit working at Uber

#69

Post by bendoernberg » Tue, Mar 07, 2017, 5:04 AM UTC

lebanon_tn wrote: post #30

bendoernberg wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The entire black population of Montgomery Alabama gave up taking the bus for over a year during the boycott because they cared enough to make that sacrifice. People who care enough sometimes go on hunger strike, lie down in front of tanks, and risk arrest for what they believe in. If you need a "better offer" than what I assume is your current 6-figure salary to change jobs, then Uber's sexist, anti-worker, sociopath…

Your viewpoint assumes a lot about the original commenter's life situation. It would be incredibly foolish to leave a stable, well paying full-time job if one were supporting a family living in one of highest cost of living cities in the U.S. Especially if someone in their family has a chronic medical condition. I understand it can be done as you mention in your examples, but it's not so easy -- especially with uncer…

First off, you're absolutely right that I don't know the poster's specific situation, and I should have done a much better job addressing the general case and not the specific person whose circumstances I know nothing about. Can't argue with that.

The thing is, everyone in the world has ties to other people and responsibilities, and they have to decide how to weight these different factors. It seems very clear that Uber is systematically mistreating and exploiting the people in its path. Software engineers as a group are in the best position to convince the company to change course, or to punish it if it does not change course. They have far, far more leverage per person than individual drivers or Uber customers, and they also are risking relatively little; they can reliably expect to find another job that pays six figures in a manner of months, right? I believe that people with that level of economic bargaining power and security are morally obligated to use that power for the benefit of others.

If the original poster had said "I don't want to risk leaving my family hungry," that's one thing. Instead they said they couldn't be expected to make any sacrifice unless someone else went to the trouble of getting them a better offer. The idea that the poster has no moral obligation to take action for the good of others unless it will also benefit them is absurd and repugnant to me. If the poster wants to admit they are not bothered by the allegations against Uber or don't care very much, then I will appreciate the honesty, but software engineers (in general) are not in a good position to blame morally suspect positions on necessity or survival.

Re: Silicon Valley programmers pressure friends to quit working at Uber

#70

Post by goseeastarwar » Tue, Mar 07, 2017, 5:09 AM UTC

synicalx wrote: post #42

goseeastarwar wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A stolen wallet is just like someone putting their career on the line because of a feckless HR department. Wait, no it isn't.

Not even what I was talking about, but sure go right ahead and keep typing whatever you want. If you get around to it, feel free to answer my actual question at any time you like.

It's very simple when you realize they have everything to lose and little to gain by speaking up. I don't know how this isn't abundantly clear to anyone littering this thread with nonsense about evidence.