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Google featured snippets are worse than fake news

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Re: Google featured snippets are worse than fake news

#71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed, and that's the heart of the problem. Something like Google news needs more than just algorithms.

OTOH, that's also a problem, because any editorial choice is politically debatable... I'm afraid there is no easy solution.

I'm afraid there is ultimately no way to not be political.

Having these kind of anti-news sites appear as "news" on Google is not just poisoning their reputation but making them complicit in whatever disaster finally results from it. The worst case scenario is genocide e.g.: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio_T%C3%A9l%C3%A9vision_Lib...

Re: Google featured snippets are worse than fake news

#72

Whenever someone says how humanities are "useless" point them at this example Whenever there's a measure of something, people will optimize for that measure. But trust is not directly measurable. But even then Google should have been better than weighing fringe sites the same as Wikipedia as an example

Is Breitbart a fringe site anymore?

Re: Google featured snippets are worse than fake news

#73
post #66
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually google has become ( for me, at least) lately some kind of proxy to stackoverflow and wikipedia, since both this two services have atrocious own search solutions and I have to rely on google to get interpret my keywords the right way.

This really does seem like a big problem. What are some sites that do site search well? Is there currently a good way to implement something even half as good as Google locally without a major lift?

I was senior engineer with Autonomy ( before being bought by HP ) and we did really good projects for some big companies, it worked well. Lucene comes a long way, with enough time, some cool stuff would emerge.

But if you need to replicate google, you need bootloads of user data and in generally data to operate on ( i.e. to be able to extract the equivalence of certain terms and expressions, and so on ). And generally some kind of feedback system ( like user clicking a link on a SERP, is adding that question/answer combo a certain boost for the future ).

In short: it's complicated and after 10 years of experience I couldn't tell if a solution is so unversal as google.

Re: Google featured snippets are worse than fake news

#74
> (It should be noted that Wilson was still a notorious racist.)

See that's the funny thing about fake news, not even this article which seeks to set us all straight on the matter could avoid it -- just because you get your facts from a source you consider reputable doesn't make it so. In fact, Wilson was actually no more "racist" than Abraham Lincoln, but no one would ever call Lincoln a racists.

Re: Google featured snippets are worse than fake news

#75
post #62

Why is it that hard for engineers to rely on good old attribution? If every Google's featured snippet started its reply with "Breitbart says..." or "Trent Online, the leading Internet Newspaper in Nigeria said...", it wouldn't matter so much for those inevitable cases when the reply is taken straight from a white-supremacist or radical anarchist forum. The problem comes when the same reply is provided as "Google's tr…

Because prepending that doesn't solve the problem Google wants to solve: once Google figures out that you typed in a question, they want to give you the answer to your question. Not tell you what other people think the answer is. (I agree that it is broken in a lot of cases now, but prepending that is a very bad workaround).

> once Google figures out that you typed in a question, they want to give you the answer to your question

And that's the problem that the article rightfully denounces. Having the answer to every question is not something that you can automate, not without strong AI.

> Prepending that is a very bad workaround

I strongly disagree; for me it's a very sensible thing to do - and in fact is how we do it in a social context ("I'm totally not making this shit up, I've read it in a scientific article / this morning newspaper / a tweet message"). We rely on the context where the knowledge came from as a proxy for how accurate its content might be.

The default posture of engineers to a problem of inaccuracy is "make it more accurate". That's the logical method when you're building bridges, where we can describe the physics to an extremely accurate degree and where it would fall out or quickly degrade if you make a mistake.

But for problems that rely on inaccurate or uncertain information, and where no exact models exists, the only reasonable way to build them is to degrade gracefully. If you don't handle failures, it will fail in spectacular ways - because it will fail sometimes.

The system should provide an escape hatch, and allow the user to be in control. The user of an automated system should always be able to inspect how the system came to the provided result, and be able to override the given results in those cases where it will get it wrong (at least by some users in a supervising role, which other users could notify to).

Unless a revolution happens, Artificial Intelligence will only ever work in the large if we put humans in the decision loop.

Re: Google featured snippets are worse than fake news

#76
Yikes. More of this "People only want to be told what to do" stuff.

I can easily think of a dozen political questions for which no simple answer would be correct -- the language is simply too fuzzy. For many, many things, this is a good idea. The date of Easter is the date of Easter. But the glaring danger here is that for many things this is a freaking evil dystopian nightmare. Why? Because Google will keep tweaking these impossible questions until they look real enough to most people that nobody complains At that point, millions, perhaps billions of people are asking complex questions to a little box that has designed itself to give an plausible but incomplete or wrong answer.

Epistemology, Google. There are things you can know and things you cannot. Please do not treat them all the same.

Re: Google featured snippets are worse than fake news

#77
Google wants to avoid editorializing, and be able to throw their hands up and say "not our fault!" due to the plausible deniability of "algorithms".

They can't pull that off anymore.

There needs to be a shift towards a Web-of-Trust-like system, where some sources are recognized as authoritative. Government websites, like the CDC, for example. Big media outlets. Scientific associations (IPCC, APA, etc). Not all information is equal. Even if, for example, government dietary recommendations are outdated in some ways, that should be the authoritative answer Google provides, unless there is an equally-reputable but more accurate source (here, prioritize medical sources over governmental ones).

A high school dropout doesn't know more about academic subjects than a PhD grad. A blog isn't as authoritative as a reputable source. This is easy stuff.

Then the question becomes: "some people don't see reputable sources as reputable". That isn't Google's problem, and it can't be fixed at their level.

Re: Google featured snippets are worse than fake news

#78
post #73
post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This really does seem like a big problem. What are some sites that do site search well? Is there currently a good way to implement something even half as good as Google locally without a major lift?

I was senior engineer with Autonomy ( before being bought by HP ) and we did really good projects for some big companies, it worked well. Lucene comes a long way, with enough time, some cool stuff would emerge. But if you need to replicate google, you need bootloads of user data and in generally data to operate on ( i.e. to be able to extract the equivalence of certain terms and expressions, and so on ). And generall…

Pardon my ignorance, but would such a service need to be specific to a site? I'm wondering if there is a business (or perhaps better yet, non-profit) opportunity to provide data to drive something that can be tacked on to individual sites. Would an organization like Mozilla have an opportunity here?

Re: Google featured snippets are worse than fake news

#80

Whenever someone says how humanities are "useless" point them at this example Whenever there's a measure of something, people will optimize for that measure. But trust is not directly measurable. But even then Google should have been better than weighing fringe sites the same as Wikipedia as an example

Is Breitbart a fringe site anymore?

They still keep putting out made-up stories so I don't see why not
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