Plenty of startups in silicon valley use java. If you want to talk about text editor coding performance, yeah java is the worst language of all time. However, when you have eclipse which features super efficient source code generation, code navigation and autocomplete tools? It's actually nice to have a verbose language. imho this facilitates merging documentation with code, whereas a more mathematical programming style tends to be more cryptic.
Is java dead for startups?
71–80 of 101 posts
Re: Is java dead for startups?
#72Earlier quoted context omitted.
I guess this is the reason why Scala gets a lot of attention: same speed as Java (on JVM), fully compatible with Java, it has static typing, and it's productive like RoR or Python. BTW, both the Java (javac) and Scala compilers were written by the same person.
I have not read where Scala is the same speed, citation?
Scala is as fast as Java because similar code in both languages compile to the exact same bytecode.
With type specialization in Scala 2.8 it will be even faster than Java in some cases.
Re: Is java dead for startups?
#73Can we please get over all this and just go with the one mantra: use the tools you're productive and comfortable with. End of story.
I'm a Java developer, but I also recognize the amazing influence that more dynamic languages have had on my way of thinking. I'm hugely indebted to the SICP train of thought. That makes me a better Java programmer too, to get around some of the stupid practices many other use.
Re: Is java dead for startups?
#74Is there really an aversion to using Java in a lean startup, or is this just an example of Voluntary Response Bias?
That is, are you simply observing that startups who make a big deal about the language they're using are more likely to be using one of the "hot" languages than a stodgy old language like Java?
Re: Is java dead for startups?
#75Earlier quoted context omitted.
Most of the projects you just listed are several years old, and some go back more than five years. That's not exactly "new" when it comes to computing.
Yeah, but they're all being actively developed, so I'm not sure how much it matters when the project was originated. And that was just "off the cuff" of stuff I use or am interested in. There's other stuff out there as well. Anyway, I'm not arguing that Java is the most active in this regard, just that this particular criticism - of all the ones one could level - is, in my humble opinion, relatively weak.
Don't confuse "development" with "maintenance". They are very different things. We see most of those projects merely being maintained, not radically improved.
True development is happening within the Haskell community, for instance, where they're taking concepts from various fields of mathematics and applying them to software development in ways that haven't really been done before.
Most Java-based projects are merely reimplementing something that somebody else has already done, or they're making minor, incremental improvements to a well-aged piece of software.
Re: Is java dead for startups?
#76Earlier quoted context omitted.
Maybe the static typing - harder to change, so you try to get it right.
Not sure if it's only that - the static typing is more or less cared for by the IDEs and their refactoring tools. I would like some Java developer to chime in on this.
Sir, I find your dismissal of my comment rather cavalier. I am some java developer.
My experience is that static typing makes things harder to change, and therefore you try to avoid change by getting it right in the first place. Refactoring tools are not magic pixie dust (wish they were).
Though I use vi + homegrown tools, so I guess I'm not the IDE java developer you were looking for.
Re: Is java dead for startups?
#77Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Another aspect is that many cool new things are happening > in languages other than Java - they have more interesting > tools (eg. Sinatra), and more interesting energy in the > community, because they attract those crazy, eager, > young, passionate, enthusiastic early adopters. Of all the comparisons I've heard, this is one I'd say I'm dubious about. There is still a LOT of activity in the Java space, and lots of…
Most of the projects you just listed are several years old, and some go back more than five years. That's not exactly "new" when it comes to computing.
5 years ago was probably Java's sweet spot, in terms of cycles being used to help the developer, while still giving adequate performance.
It would be interesting to graph the average ages of the users of the popular languages; youth being a proxy for the (perceived) current best thing. When you're starting out, why wouldn't you choose that?
Re: Is java dead for startups?
#78Earlier quoted context omitted.
Not sure if it's only that - the static typing is more or less cared for by the IDEs and their refactoring tools. I would like some Java developer to chime in on this.
Sir, I find your dismissal of my comment rather cavalier. I am some java developer. My experience is that static typing makes things harder to change, and therefore you try to avoid change by getting it right in the first place. Refactoring tools are not magic pixie dust (wish they were). Though I use vi + homegrown tools, so I guess I'm not the IDE java developer you were looking for.
I am sorry. That's not what I meant.
But you got exactly what I was going for: a typical Java IDE user would be able to add a lot to the discussion.
While I use Python more than any other language, I write some Java, but can't call me typical either - I use emacs for that.
Re: Is java dead for startups?
#79I once wrote some blogposts [1] titled "Why do Startups still use Java? ". I would have thought people who wanted the Java libraries/JVM would have used Scala or Clojure. I understand why people would choose Java over say Python (the need for specific libraries like say Hadoop which have no direct equivalent in Python/C land), but I've not yet understood why they won't use Clojure or Scala once they choose the JVM. I…
Almost all of the best Java developers that I know (including many who ran Java user groups, podcasts, started well known projects) would choose to use Scala on a new project rather than Java. Given Scala's present state (many performance problems were ironed out in 2.8.0), I simply don't see a single reason not to do so. It's quite puzzling why the author of the parent article lumps it in with Ruby as the two aren't…
But you are forgetting that its much easier to hire experienced Java programmers than experienced Scala programmers, simply because there are not that many of the latter.
Re: Is java dead for startups?
#80Earlier quoted context omitted.
At runtime you can provide a different implementation of ImageFactory. For example, a unit test can define MockImageFactory which ignores the filesystem and just returns a canned Image object. If code everywhere calls the static Image.open method, there is no way to redefine it short of editing the source or the bytecode.
Good answer. That actually makes sense with the Image example, but OTOH there's still cases where a separate factory class is used where a static method would work.
I think that's one of the reasons.
It's so nice to be able to provide a different GadgetFactory during tests or at different moments that some developers decide it would be cool to have the possibility to provide different factory implementations for every class, just in case they need it afterwards.