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To keep Tor hack source code secret, DOJ dismisses child porn case

arstechnica.com

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Re: To keep Tor hack source code secret, DOJ dismisses child porn case

#41

Post by hyperbovine »

hasenj wrote: post #16
woolly wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While the majority of it probably isn't 'how the world should be', a man is going free because (we speculate) that the evidence against him was gathered illegally. This bit probably is 'how the world should be'.

How so? In general if a criminal goes free despite having evidence against him just because the evidence was not obtained legally ... it sounds rather wrong to me.

I think most people would agree with that statement. But how do we decide if they are a criminal in the first place? Therein lies the rub.

Re: To keep Tor hack source code secret, DOJ dismisses child porn case

#42

Post by Almaviva »

moomin wrote: post #9

So, let's see now: a man is going free who should probably be going to jail for a long time, because the state doesn't want to disclose the methods of gathering evidence against him, which we can speculate are because they are illegal or sourced from non-law-enforcement agencies. A case with near-identical facts and the same judge _is_ going to trial and, not content with tapping your email, the state now wants to pu…

If the site mentioned in the article had 150,000 members as they say, that's a lot of people to lock up for years for pointing a browser at a url.

Re: To keep Tor hack source code secret, DOJ dismisses child porn case

#43

Post by johncolanduoni »

Almaviva wrote: post #42
moomin wrote: post #9

So, let's see now: a man is going free who should probably be going to jail for a long time, because the state doesn't want to disclose the methods of gathering evidence against him, which we can speculate are because they are illegal or sourced from non-law-enforcement agencies. A case with near-identical facts and the same judge _is_ going to trial and, not content with tapping your email, the state now wants to pu…

If the site mentioned in the article had 150,000 members as they say, that's a lot of people to lock up for years for pointing a browser at a url.

Considering it was a Tor site, it's not like a user who didn't know what they were doing could end up there on accident. Also I'm not sure users means "only browsed the website" (could mean they had a profile, etc.).

EDIT: It appears that they did do more than just visit the site: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13799213

Re: To keep Tor hack source code secret, DOJ dismisses child porn case

#44

Post by jlarocco »

sandworm101 wrote: post #8

I think they want to to disclose. I think prosecutors expected that they would be allowed to do so by now. They probably assumed the exploit would have been patched away, or that some better tool would have come allong by this point in time. Id bet good money that this tool is still in active use by some three-letter agency. Should it be discovered or patched before the SOL, its intel value will drop and prosecutions…

That was my thought as well. Especially since they dismissed the case in such a way that they can bring it back later. Might as well use it to collect evidence while they can, and then bring all the charges when the exploit is fixed and it's not useful any more.

It sucks that the pervert in the case is going free (for now), but I would guess the experience scared him enough that he won't be doing it again any time soon.

Re: To keep Tor hack source code secret, DOJ dismisses child porn case

#45

Post by tgragnato »

Huffers2 wrote: post #14
woolly wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While the majority of it probably isn't 'how the world should be', a man is going free because (we speculate) that the evidence against him was gathered illegally. This bit probably is 'how the world should be'.

I've never understood this. If I gather evidence against somebody illegally, and it proves their guilt, shouldn't we both go to jail?

I'm with you ! They are both criminals and as such should be detained.

Quoting Bill Binney “Things won't change until we put these people in jail”

Re: To keep Tor hack source code secret, DOJ dismisses child porn case

#47

Post by na85 »

hasenj wrote: post #16
woolly wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While the majority of it probably isn't 'how the world should be', a man is going free because (we speculate) that the evidence against him was gathered illegally. This bit probably is 'how the world should be'.

How so? In general if a criminal goes free despite having evidence against him just because the evidence was not obtained legally ... it sounds rather wrong to me.

It's called the Rule of Law, as in it's the Law that Rules this land. Nobody is supposed to be above it, despite evidence to the contrary in US politics.

Re: To keep Tor hack source code secret, DOJ dismisses child porn case

#48

Post by snailletters »

endgame wrote: post #33
ryan_j_naughton wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you serious or being facetious? If you are being serious, I'd like to direct you to the wikipedia page on the topic: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Think_of_the_children "In debate, however, as a plea for pity, used as an appeal to emotion, it is a logical fallacy"

Snarky, mostly. So often the people who want to ram through additional surveillance will do so using "think of the children" rhetoric, as though they were the most important thing in the world. And now we find that when it comes time to actually use these tools to protect the children, the secrecy of the tools is more important.

From the Wikipedia article, "Community, Space and Online Censorship (2009) argued that classifying children in an infantile manner, as innocents in need of protection, is a form of obsession over the concept of purity."

I believe I see what you mean, however in a case of child pornography do you not think that it's in a human's best interest to keep something from abuse of naivety?

Re: To keep Tor hack source code secret, DOJ dismisses child porn case

#49

Post by hackuser »

Why is an exploit against a Tor user so valuable? Assuming the attackers can access the server, which for the FBI seems a reasonable assumption (they can seize the server, operate it as a honeypot, etc.), all they need is a browser vulnerability.

Perhaps they did use a valuable exploit in this case, or they used something not legal (such as something not covered by their warrant or NSA surveillance).

Re: To keep Tor hack source code secret, DOJ dismisses child porn case

#50

Post by CapitalistCartr »

mcbits wrote: post #30
wolfgke wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This argument would legitimize torture if society would agree on that it is legitimate. So it's a really bad idea to accept this argument.

The way the system is now, if you gather evidence by "torture" (remembering it's just an analogy) and fail to come up with a convincing cover story for how you gathered the evidence, then the case is dismissed and everyone goes home. "Welp, it was worth a try!" It's this current system that's at risk of legitimizing torture as yet another illegal-but-oh-well tool for investigation.

Not if the victim of torture can afford our legal system. A (most likely Federal) judge would deny qualified immunity to those responsible, and they'd be held accountable at least in civil court, possibly criminal, although doubtful, given the way state prosecutors crawl up the police butt.
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