Men not at work: Why so many men aged 25 to 54 are not working (2016) • Hacker News Board

Re: Men not at work: Why so many men aged 25 to 54 are not working (2016)

#161

Post by leroy_masochist » Sun, Mar 05, 2017, 8:24 PM UTC

tbrownaw wrote: post #138

xt00 wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Very true. It's definitely now a situation where we are dealing with the fallout from years of not dealing with the problem. Yea I recently read a story where a factory tried to hire around 50 people and could only hire a small number due to the vast majority failing drug tests. I was actually fairly surprised to hear that. So yea now we are dealing with the problem that has been festering and getting worse for years…

Yea I recently read a story where a factory tried to hire around 50 people and could only hire a small number due to the vast majority failing drug tests. Maybe the problem is whatever stupidity requires/incentivizes employers to police what "their" employees do when not at work?

I think it's a valid concern on employers' behalf as far as opiates and meth are concerned. You do not want to be the manager of any business that has a lot of expensive stuff within arms reach -- whether it's a restaurant kitchen or a Home Depot or a jobsite or whatever -- when one of the employees loses control of their habit, needs cash badly, and commits a spectacularly stupid act of larceny to get that cash. I have seen this play out a few times in friends' businesses and it is not pretty.

With that said, I'd agree it's complete bullshit to be testing your employees to try to sniff out recreational marijuana use. A lot of BigCo middle management are socially conservative people in their 40's-60's, and unfortunately many of them operate from a simplistic baseline of "all drugs are bad"...pretty clear that this preponderance is changing, perhaps not quickly enough.

Re: Men not at work: Why so many men aged 25 to 54 are not working (2016)

#162

Post by 77pt77 » Sun, Mar 05, 2017, 8:27 PM UTC

pharrington wrote: post #150

77pt77 wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I doubt any gender can be cultured out preference for physical attributes. These are evolutionary traits and will most likely not change at least at the time scale of a few generations. >We can support equal rights and still acknowledge innate differences right? That's the idea. Law and human rights are deeply "contra natura" by definition. Ignoring nature to the extent we are doing as a species will not end well as…

I replied to another commenter expressing your same view here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13798051 . My comment asserts your core view is inconsistent both with apparent human sexual activity and how evolutionary pressures work.

> Assuming most humans having sex is not a recent development, any evolutionary pressures...

Here I think your assumption is factually wrong. DNA testing shows that it is relatively recent (very few thousands of years)

Re: Men not at work: Why so many men aged 25 to 54 are not working (2016)

#163

Post by kristianc » Sun, Mar 05, 2017, 8:29 PM UTC

I wonder why it is that articles like this, which cover issues relevant to heterosexual middle aged white men are never flagged as 'political' when they appear on Hacker News?

Re: Men not at work: Why so many men aged 25 to 54 are not working (2016)

#164

Post by pharrington » Sun, Mar 05, 2017, 8:32 PM UTC

klodolph wrote: post #154

pharrington wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Try making her laugh. Try listening to her. Be honest. Don't open by trying to fuck.# Yes, it's a skill that like any other, requires deliberate practice. The skill, however, is being a generally enjoyable person to be around. #(If it seems like the last point contradicts the honesty, don't go around making sex your goal. Most humans are horny, it ain't anything you really need to draw attention to .) edit: downvote…

> A known effect of attacking (without confronting the core of the problem), or suppressing, or dismissing parties expressing certain beliefs or engaging in particular behaviors is that the opposing party reaffirms their actions or beliefs. Two-way intelligent and earnest discussion makes both sides amenable to the reasonable positions of the other. The downvotes are here not because people disagree with you, but bec…

Maybe I misunderstand the parent? He says "You can't find women unless you have a job, while women have made outstanding progress in education and the workforce, and for some reason they have a hard time dating people who have a less comfortable situation than themselves" - I'm interpreting the core of his argument as "men have an inordinately difficult time finding a mate if they are significantly lacking in social status." I disagree with this fundamentally - my assertion is that the most reliable and broadly applicable way of attracting women is to be charismatic, and that charisma is a trainable skill. Does this clarify things, or am I still offbase?

e: a broader point that I touch on in other comments is that the bar to having a partner in general is low-to-nonexistent. However, doing the above opens up the most options. e2: Yes, having status also expands options. However, it's neither broadly applicable nor helps maintain the long term emotional bond. Parent expressed frustration at the economic tension involved in middle class relationships. The answer to this is emphatically not wealth or status, as relationship-wise, that only trades one class of stressors for another.

Re: Men not at work: Why so many men aged 25 to 54 are not working (2016)

#165

Post by DaUR » Sun, Mar 05, 2017, 8:33 PM UTC

Frondo wrote: post #110

J-dawg wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So what do you do when there simply aren't enough jobs for most men to "have their shit together"? What are all those men going to do when they have both no stake in the economy, and little or no chance of finding a woman to love them? What percentage of men like this can society handle before some sort of tipping point is reached? I refer you to this comment from "wingless" from another discussion currently on the f…

What I'd do is this: 1) Vote for politicians who are going to create real structural change in society, e.g. Bernie, not just systems maintainers like Hillary, or rich guys who want to rip us off, like the guy who won. (And really work at a local level to enact structural systems changes!) 2) Work to change the cultural baggage around one's value being tied to one's day job. Make it sexy to be a poet, writer, singer,…

> Work to change the cultural baggage around one's value being tied to one's day job. Make it sexy to be a poet, writer, singer, househusband, whatever, derive personal/interpersonal value from something other than a career. (And again, work at a local level to make it OK not to have a big thriving career, since it's not gonna happen for a lot of folks.)

I really hate (nothing personal) this "wishful-thinking" type of activism ("we really need to do...!". You want to change women's sexual preferences? How, through CRISPR? How will you "work at a local level" to make fat 50 year olds with high school diplomas more attractive to women?

> "men are worth something because of their career" is broken, and will never come back

Instead of saying that, how about saying that everybody, including 50 year olds in mainland America, deserves the opportunity of a good job? It's like saying "fat people should be just as attractive" instead of just losing weight.

The current situation is not a refutation of "men are worth something because of their career", just a confirmation. It doesn't "have to come back", because it never left. This is how it has been, is, and will be. You're saying men without ambition or money are entitled to relationships, which they're not. Some people just can't compete, doesn't make the competition obsolete.

Re: Men not at work: Why so many men aged 25 to 54 are not working (2016)

#166

Post by WJW » Sun, Mar 05, 2017, 8:35 PM UTC

tbrownaw wrote: post #138

xt00 wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Very true. It's definitely now a situation where we are dealing with the fallout from years of not dealing with the problem. Yea I recently read a story where a factory tried to hire around 50 people and could only hire a small number due to the vast majority failing drug tests. I was actually fairly surprised to hear that. So yea now we are dealing with the problem that has been festering and getting worse for years…

Yea I recently read a story where a factory tried to hire around 50 people and could only hire a small number due to the vast majority failing drug tests. Maybe the problem is whatever stupidity requires/incentivizes employers to police what "their" employees do when not at work?

Depends on the drug of course, but since the vast majority of these substances are both highly addictive and also severely impact your ability to operate heavy machinery, people who test positive for (certain types of) drugs are obviously more of a liability on a factory floor. I don't think it's stupidity that makes employers hesitant in this case.

Re: Men not at work: Why so many men aged 25 to 54 are not working (2016)

#167

Post by J-dawg » Sun, Mar 05, 2017, 8:45 PM UTC

confounded wrote: post #147

J-dawg wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is going to sound even worse, but.. I think there was some data from okcupid that showed black men are a lot more popular (based on messages sent etc) with women of other races than black women with men of other races (I have no idea why). The uncomfortable truth could be that high-status black men have their pick of other races, leaving high-status black women to date lower status men.

> The uncomfortable truth Which you've just fabricated on the spot based on some racial stereotypes (and your presumably very important feelings). The data reflect the same basic anti-black racism as the rest of society. https://theblog.okcupid.com/race-and-attraction-2009-2014-10...

I'm pretty sure the data supports what I said, even if I missed some of the nuance. Black women are more penalised than black men.

Re: Men not at work: Why so many men aged 25 to 54 are not working (2016)

#168

Post by Fantastic_T » Sun, Mar 05, 2017, 8:55 PM UTC

Frondo wrote: post #110

J-dawg wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So what do you do when there simply aren't enough jobs for most men to "have their shit together"? What are all those men going to do when they have both no stake in the economy, and little or no chance of finding a woman to love them? What percentage of men like this can society handle before some sort of tipping point is reached? I refer you to this comment from "wingless" from another discussion currently on the f…

What I'd do is this: 1) Vote for politicians who are going to create real structural change in society, e.g. Bernie, not just systems maintainers like Hillary, or rich guys who want to rip us off, like the guy who won. (And really work at a local level to enact structural systems changes!) 2) Work to change the cultural baggage around one's value being tied to one's day job. Make it sexy to be a poet, writer, singer,…

>1) Vote for politicians who are going to create real structural change in society, e.g. Bernie

Bernie Sanders 2011: American dream more apt to be realized in Venezuela where incomes are more equal https://www.sanders.senate.gov/newsroom/must-read/close-the-...

Six years later, Venezuelans are facing malnutrition from severe shortages in basic goods. 75 percent of Venezuelan lost 19 pounds in 2016:

http://www.upi.com/Top_News/World-News/2017/02/19/Venezuela-...

I don't think any other oil economy has seen 75 percent of the population lose 19 lb in a year from malnutrition. The total ignorance of Venezuelan economic officials is what is behind the severity of the shortages. This quote from 2011 is emblematic of that:

“The law of supply and demand is a lie,” Karlin Granadillo, the head of a price control agency set up to enforce the new regulations, said on state television. “These are not arbitrary measures. They are necessary.”

http://www.pressherald.com/2011/11/26/venezuelas-price-contr...

For reasons like this, I find the promotion of socialism to be morally reprehensible.

Re: Men not at work: Why so many men aged 25 to 54 are not working (2016)

#169

Post by Naed_force » Sun, Mar 05, 2017, 9:05 PM UTC

Frondo wrote: post #110

J-dawg wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So what do you do when there simply aren't enough jobs for most men to "have their shit together"? What are all those men going to do when they have both no stake in the economy, and little or no chance of finding a woman to love them? What percentage of men like this can society handle before some sort of tipping point is reached? I refer you to this comment from "wingless" from another discussion currently on the f…

What I'd do is this: 1) Vote for politicians who are going to create real structural change in society, e.g. Bernie, not just systems maintainers like Hillary, or rich guys who want to rip us off, like the guy who won. (And really work at a local level to enact structural systems changes!) 2) Work to change the cultural baggage around one's value being tied to one's day job. Make it sexy to be a poet, writer, singer,…

>Vote for politicians who are going to create real structural change in society, e.g. Bernie, not just systems maintainers like Hillary, or rich guys who want to rip us off, like the guy who won. (And really work at a local level to enact structural systems changes!)

Bernie Sanders 2011: American dream more apt to be realized in Venezuela where incomes are more equal https://www.sanders.senate.gov/newsroom/must-read/close-the-...

Six years later, Venezuelans are facing malnutrition from severe shortages in basic goods. 75 percent Venezuelan lost 19 pounds in 2016:

http://www.upi.com/Top_News/World-News/2017/02/19/Venezuela-...

Re: Men not at work: Why so many men aged 25 to 54 are not working (2016)

#170

Post by dukeluke » Sun, Mar 05, 2017, 9:19 PM UTC

bobbytherobot wrote: post #136

dominotw wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>If the tables had turned, then men would be systematically be kept out of jobs, particularly high paying careers. hundreds of thousands of men that we have imprisoned, thousands of men with mental health issues and drug addictions. men that took a wrong turn in life and ended up homeless, destitute or in the prison. These men have been systematically kept out of jobs. There has to be special kind of hypocrisy in act…

Those are all fair points. My point wasn't that any man can simply roll up and get the high paying job and it's never been the case. Many men would have been rejected just based on the color of their skin or because they had a Jewish last name. By and large, men aren't being denied access to an interview simply based on their gender. If we go back a few decades, women were denied access to an interview simply based o…

That may have once been the case, but not anymore. Almost all companies have some sort of affirmative action hiring process that is rigged against white men. I see tons of job postings where women and minorities are "strongly urged to apply." That's kind of wording makes it sound like a white man would not be considered for the position.