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Men not at work: Why so many men aged 25 to 54 are not working (2016)

brookings.edu

21–30 of 226 posts

Re: Men not at work: Why so many men aged 25 to 54 are not working (2016)

#21
post #10

"... or the wife works while the man take care of kids" Then wifey starts seeing hubby as a sexless entity --- sort of like the son she never gave birth to --- and loses attraction for him. "... it isn't a gender thing. It is a money thing" Humans spent millennia as hunter-gatherers. Men hunted, women gathered. Men protected and provided, women nurtured the children. If women provide and protection is provided by the…

In my marriage, I bring home the bacon with a small SaaS and the wife is in graduate school. We split the raising of our child 50-50.

I like it just fine.

She doesn't.

She's admittedly jealous of how much time I spend with my son, she resents having to continue on her career path and not being able to be a stay-t-home mom. She doesn't understand why I would rather raise my son than work a real programming job.

We are getting divorced.

Re: Men not at work: Why so many men aged 25 to 54 are not working (2016)

#22
post #10

"... or the wife works while the man take care of kids" Then wifey starts seeing hubby as a sexless entity --- sort of like the son she never gave birth to --- and loses attraction for him. "... it isn't a gender thing. It is a money thing" Humans spent millennia as hunter-gatherers. Men hunted, women gathered. Men protected and provided, women nurtured the children. If women provide and protection is provided by the…

Gathered/trapped (female contributed) foods provided approximately 50% of average caloric intake in most forager societies outside of the Arctic. And there are a lot of interesting social rules about the sharing of hunted meat (highly desirable but less reliable). Men do have to be willing to put skin in the game and contribute in some significant (sometimes risky) way to be considered an acceptable mate, though.

Re: Men not at work: Why so many men aged 25 to 54 are not working (2016)

#23
post #18

I think that there is more to this story that just "low education low skill men not working". I personally think that this has more to do with the poor state of psychological health at this socio-economic status. Specifically, the people I know who fall into this category have one or more problems: 1. One (big) problem is that they often have an enabler -- that is, someone who is supporting these folks not working in…

[deleted]

Re: Men not at work: Why so many men aged 25 to 54 are not working (2016)

#24
post #6
post #2

I've started some treatment recently, and for some reason I immediately started dating and looking for mates again. I quickly realized how difficult it is. You can't find women unless you have a job, while women have made outstanding progress in education and the workforce, and for some reason they have a hard time dating people who have a less comfortable situation than themselves. I don't want to ride the whole men…

I'm really not sure how having a job helps you find women; being trapped in a box segregated far away from them for most of the day just seems counter productive in that respect. You have the weekends but so does everyone else. I really think something has changed about how people socialize and it's simply become harder to meet like minded people; It's harder to network professionally, it's harder to find fabricators…

I think you might have misread GP's post a bit; I didn't understand him to be saying "Without a job, there are fewer opportunities to meet eligible women." Rather, I think he was saying "Without a job, fewer women will consider you eligible. (Contrasting with last generation where employed men were fine with dating unemployed women, this generation of employed women are not as fine with dating unemployed men.)"

Re: Men not at work: Why so many men aged 25 to 54 are not working (2016)

#25
This article strikes out at the end. The answer for the folks who have given up looking for a job isn't easier access to college as suggested.

When someone drops out of high school it's not because they had too few choices to go to college, it's because they didn't see any value in the education they were already getting.

We need more vocational education and it needs to start earlier in life.

They should also teach a class in high school called "life" in which kids have to construct a virtual life for themselves, finds a place to live on Craigslist, price furniture, calculate food expenses, gas, electric, internet, mobile, insurance, etc, etc, so they have a good concept of what they're up against. Then talk about serious alternatives to pay for that life, a vocation, the military, college professional.

My HVAC guy didn't need college; it would be a huge waste of money and it would have postponed his career by 4 years. People like him can make six figures if they're good and easily support a family of 4.

Re: Men not at work: Why so many men aged 25 to 54 are not working (2016)

#26
post #14
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would argue it's rather dangerous to use evolution as support for theories about human behavior. This kind of argument is what brought us eugenics.

That is as valid as creationism. Please abstain from such worthless platitudinous statements.

His point is that people love to confirm their biases on subjects like this with "facts" about evolution, without much critical evaluation.

Arguements like this have long be used to support why women shouldnt work or vote because thats the "natural state".

Re: Men not at work: Why so many men aged 25 to 54 are not working (2016)

#27
The article does a pretty piss poor job of explaining why this has happened. A few points:

1. Nobody wants to say it, but let's be clear: these men are redundant. Even without all these "prime-age men" the Dow breaks 21,000. The market doesn't need them and they have no value to contribute.

2. The market is doing so well not just in spite of but because it has abandoned this excess labor. This is the creative destruction of capitalism that makes the whole system work. It is not a bug or even a symptom -- it is essential logic. Nobody said anything when this systemic unemployment was concentrated among minorities in inner cities ghettos but now that's its become so prevalent and the wrong type of people... to quote: "If tomorrow, I tell the press that, like, a gang banger will get shot, or a truckload of soldiers will be blown up, nobody panic, because it's all "part of the plan.""

3. It's interesting that the focus is on men. In reality of course it's not "men" who are being affected but whole regions. This is clearly a regional phenomenon because the market is deliberately killing off inefficient industries which happen to be concentrated in certain regions. To quote:

""" Of much greater concern is the large number of metropolitan regions with very low rates of work among prime-age men. These include many small former industrial centers in states like Michigan, Indiana, and Ohio; areas of West Virginia and Louisiana that rely on declining-employment industries like mining; and long-struggling agricultural economies in Arkansas, Texas, and inland California. """ [1]

4. The biggest losers in all this aren't men but women. American white women are experiencing an unprecedented mortality spike. And guess where these women live? [2] The dynamics are a bit fascinating but you could perhaps eyeball it and say the market doubles for each additional 10/100,000 deaths added.

It's not obvious that eliminating this excess labor is such a bad thing or why it's suddenly a crisis. Despite the bias at work in the article it's not clear why the U.S. should abandon the system of capitalism that it made the republic so great when the system is working exactly as intended.

[1] https://www.brookings.edu/blog/the-avenue/2016/06/21/where-a...

[2] http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2015/03/more-american-wh...

Re: Men not at work: Why so many men aged 25 to 54 are not working (2016)

#28
One big issue with this problem is that these men are not all in the same location. Many of them are distributed through the so called rust belt areas -- I've seen maps of this previously. So simply creating a few factories here and there will only address a small part of the problem. They mentioned infrastructure improvement as a way to put some of these people to work -- I think that sounds reasonable because you can apply those jobs and money in the areas hardest hit, but if it only lasts 3 years then it doesn't solve the problem. It would make more sense to incentivize these people to move to areas where there are just more jobs available -- for example, work doing construction for somebody in Indiana for a while then transfer to someplace else. There are tons of jobs across skill levels in areas where there is a growing city. But if you live someplace where the population is declining and have less than high school education then both companies and government are not super excited about investing heavily there. Better to invest in the suburbs of Chicago or Minneapolis rather than small towns that barely have enough jobs anyway. But I think we need to help people move to places it's easier to support long term. So my point is the location of these people is a big factor.

Re: Men not at work: Why so many men aged 25 to 54 are not working (2016)

#29
post #10

"... or the wife works while the man take care of kids" Then wifey starts seeing hubby as a sexless entity --- sort of like the son she never gave birth to --- and loses attraction for him. "... it isn't a gender thing. It is a money thing" Humans spent millennia as hunter-gatherers. Men hunted, women gathered. Men protected and provided, women nurtured the children. If women provide and protection is provided by the…

In my marriage, I bring home the bacon with a small SaaS and the wife is in graduate school. We split the raising of our child 50-50. I like it just fine. She doesn't. She's admittedly jealous of how much time I spend with my son, she resents having to continue on her career path and not being able to be a stay-t-home mom. She doesn't understand why I would rather raise my son than work a real programming job. We are…

Perhaps a few decades from now, saner people will arrive at the realization that a woman's first career should be motherhood. A woman's best years should be for her children, not her employer.

Re: Men not at work: Why so many men aged 25 to 54 are not working (2016)

#30
post #19

Do you have a job? It sounds in your post like you don't. You should really reflect on your attitude, because invoking ideas like "class struggle" when you're dating a single mom who's parents are helping her is not a healthy way to think. If you are dating this woman and love her the only thing you should be brainstorming is how YOU could be making more money. Not some crazy armchair economist explanation for why he…

> This is one of the reasons that those two fellows did not discuss for the current problem we face: American men are declining in quality.

Or the quality bar is raising f fast and lost connection with reality. Internet bubble effect? Fake news?

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