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How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

nytimes.com

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Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#501

Post by daodedickinson »

jfoutz wrote: post #263
us0r wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe not a popular opinion but I find this entire thing pure genius. >I couldn't find a good source, but it doesn't seem like that's something a CC merchant would have access to. Do they really get to see that? The first 6 digits of a credit card can identify the issuing bank (BIN number - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Payment_card_number ). If you ask your merchant they can readily provide you and up to date list.…

I agree. It's genius in a Lex Luthor kind of way. If I understood the full scope of the application, I like to think i'd decline to work on that. It's easy to imagine engineers working on small parts of the system, and never really connecting the dots that the whole point is to evade law enforcement. There's a big difference between keeping secrets for market advantage and to evade the law. In the first case, I want…

I'd rather go homeless than work on that.

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#502

Post by zepto »

menacingly wrote: post #82
PunchTornado wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

not as bad as the company deserves.

Kind of weird IMO to think of a company as deserving or not deserving something. It's a group of people with a with array of opinions and behavior, many of whom probably like having a place to work It's much more constructive to want the organization to get better than to cheer on some kind of punishment we think it's owed

This logic would imply that companies don't deserve rights or personhood either.

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#503

Post by st3v3r »

briandear wrote: post #195
nemacol wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can vote, run for office, petition, volunteer, protest,etc to the local, state, and federal government to have policies that reflect your values. The only thing you can do with Uber is use it or not. Maybe you could write Uber a letter. You have a say in government - that is its stated goal and purpose. Of the people for the people.

Why would you need write Uber a letter? Don't like it, don't use it. You don't have a say in government like you do with a private company. If I don't like the government, I have to hope that millions of other people agree with me. If I don't like a company, I alone can choose not to associate with it. My relationship with or without Uber is entirely up to me. I'm forced to endure the government whether I like it or…

If said private company is spewing pollution into the water system, then not doing business with them doesn't change that.

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#504

Post by st3v3r »

mindcrime wrote: post #333
briandear wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would you need write Uber a letter? Don't like it, don't use it. You don't have a say in government like you do with a private company. If I don't like the government, I have to hope that millions of other people agree with me. If I don't like a company, I alone can choose not to associate with it. My relationship with or without Uber is entirely up to me. I'm forced to endure the government whether I like it or…

Also, corporations - as a rule - don't have huge armies made up of many people with guns, tanks, jet fighters, nuclear bombs, etc., which they can use to impose their will on you. It's a lot easier to divest yourself of a bad relationship with a company, than a nation-state. (And no, "move" isn't a reasonable response to this, so don't waste your digital breath with any Somalia references).

Yeah, no. Move is about as reasonable as any other libertarian nonsense.

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#505

Post by TeMPOraL »

karzeem wrote: post #397
nemacol wrote: post #323

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, if we stick with Uber and transportation topic. Labor laws, minimum wage, vehicle inspections, registration. systems and rules that were put in place as a response to what citizens felt were "wrongs" that needed to be addressed. When a organization ignores those laws then they are going against the will of the people.

When given a choice, drivers stampeded from yellow cabs to Uber. Riders stampeded from yellow cabs to Uber. It's clear which one most parties prefer. And that suggests that all those government "services" around the provision of taxi service are valued at or below 0 by most people.

It's not an argument. Getting people to "stampede" to you is trivial - just drop the prices well below market average, and the herd will quickly follow, regardless of whether or not your service is actually better. Doing that is difficult (that's the point of competition), but becomes much easier if you can blatantly break the law and get away with it.

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#506

Post by darawk »

nemacol wrote: post #481
darawk wrote: post #420

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is the will of the people? How is it expressed? Through representative elections? What about Arrow's impossibility theorem? The 'will of the people' on the issue of Uber is abundantly clear. Everyone wants it, except taxi drivers and the companies and structures that benefit from them. This gets blocked sometimes due to the fact that taxi drivers represent a concentrated interest against a diffuse benefit. We al…

I wonder how many Uber drivers and riders vote? ~160k drivers in USA (according to their twitter posts). How many users? Where is the pro Uber Lobby? Don't have one? Start one! You are clearly in favor of this type of program. If you truly believe that it is the right thing then be part of the solution that makes it happen. They raised their voices against it.. You have to speak up for "the rest of us". Be the change…

Like I said, concentrated interests, diffuse benefits. The benefits are too small to me to be worth my time to go out and organize for it. That is why this problem exists. It is the reason why hairdressers require licenses, it is the reason why teachers can't be fired, and it is the reason why we don't have a carbon tax.

If you're arguing that all those things are good and consistent with the will of the people, then sure. I suppose that's a consistent position, even if absurd in its consequences. But I don't think for a second that you believe all three of those things are good simultaneously.

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#507

Post by skookumchuck »

boomboomsubban wrote: post #303
skookumchuck wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The difference between the government and the corporation is the government can confiscate your property, take your liberty, and end your life. A corporation can do none of those things. A bad government is far, far, far more dangerous than a bad corporation.

>A corporation can do none of those things. Yes they can, they just need to hide that they're doing it or keep the government on their side.

Some examples that illustrate your assertion, please.

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#508

Post by neilc »

Digory wrote: post #304

Of all the things Uber is accused of this week, I'm pretty sure this one is the least concerning. It seems to involve the ethical dilemma of a radar detector. Speed limits are about public safety, too, but speed traps are usually about money. Ride-sharing regulations might be about safety, but Uber 'stings' seem to be about hurting drivers (not Uber) and preserving the value of taxi medallions. If the police want inf…

It seems to involve the ethical dilemma of a radar detector.

It is similar, but I think an important difference is that Uber, as an organization, was deliberately flouting the law and also building tools to avoid suffering the consequences of that behavior.

I'd say it is similar to the difference between an individual using a radar detector for personal travel vs. a trucking/shipping company equipping all of their vehicles with radar detectors and making it a company policy to violate the speed limit.

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#509

Post by TeMPOraL »

wav-part wrote: post #483
anigbrowl wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, services like Uber have externalities and do not only impact their consumers. Your only option to avoid this involuntary charge s to flee Bollocks. People organize for and achieve their political goals by modifying government on a regular basis. Governmental institutions suffer from numerous flaws, but your argument is that government is fundamentally totalitarian which is nonsense.

No. Notice the word "voluntary". From libertarian point of view, Socialism is ok if you voluntary opt-in. Voluntary/Consent is central point in libertarianism.

In real world (as opposed to theoretical libertarian utopia), voluntary market interactions aren't that common. People are trivially manipulated.

Consider that the entire marketing industry is literally about taking away agency from one side of the business relationship.

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#510

Post by JumpCrisscross »

matt4077 wrote: post #456
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #399

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As Volkswagen discovered Night and day. Volkswagen was falsifying data provided to the government at an identified testing facility. Uber is fuzzing data and refusing to provide services to certain customers who have not identified themselves as police, though may be*. A city official cannot demand entry to private property without a warrant. Furthermore, one can eject someone from your place of business--again, pr…

You're confusing the crime with the cover-up. Nobody knows what Uber was trying to hide. The point was simply that such attempts to hide corporate wrongdoing are aggravating factors or can even have legal consequences on their own. They also presumably did this not just in the US. Other countries have different interpretations of the extend of sovereignty over property, and maybe if an Uber is considered "private". I…

> such attempts to hide corporate wrongdoing are aggravating factors

Usually. But I don't believe that is the case here. Uber was public about the fact that they were breaking Portland's taxi rules--they blogged to that extent. Prosecutors had enough evidence to get a subpoena and demand what they wanted. But the cops didn't do that. They chose to collect $5,000 fines from the drivers. That's their prerogative, but that upside comes with a cost.

> Other countries have different interpretations

That might be the case. I am only commenting with reference to American laws and customs.

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