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In praise of cash

aeon.co

221–230 of 369 posts

Re: In praise of cash

#221
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> still much more of a hassle That's when everything works correctly. What about when the power goes out and the card reading device stops working? What about transaction denials due to bank mistakes (or predatory policies)? Having the option to pay with credit/etc is nice, but the failure modes can be nasty.

I've had the pleasure (?) of going on vacation without notifying the card company. Because a hotel was late with a correction to their charge, that showed the card in use at two places at once, so they shut it down. While I was on vacation. That got... uncomfortable. Fortunately, they only shut down my card. My wife's still worked, and we were able to proceed. It made for a more stressful vacation, though...

This is why I always have two bank accounts (with two different banks and two different ATM cards) and always have two credit cards, in case one bank account or one credit card gets shut down or skimmed it wouldn't be a big inconvenience. Especially helpful if you are going out of the country.

Re: In praise of cash

#222
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bingo, I think you nailed it. The cashless society – which more accurately should be called the bank-payments society... is a utopia where money cannot leave – or even exist – outside the banking system, but can only be transferred from bank to bank. Such a system replaces a relationship between two parties with relationships between those parties and the bank. If either party falls out of favour with the bank, they…

The introduction of the revelatory "mark of the beast". No one will be able to [legally] buy or sell without it. I suspect anyone that tries to barter or trade outside of the system will be considered and labeled a criminal for operating in black markets or tax evasion.

Oh but I have heard people claiming the contrary: that banks are actually using a number for transaction and it has 666 embedded into it.

Re: In praise of cash

#223
post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The appeal is largely that credit cards let you spend money you don't have, and debit cards, by definition, don't. For people who have a hard time operating within their budget with credit cards, this is a huge difference.

Worth pointing out that this can be fuzzy, I have a £1600 overdraft facility that I can use with my debit card (I don't use it though).

[deleted]

Re: In praise of cash

#224
post #83
post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A cashless society would be an attempt to create a society that lacks basic economic freedom, but it would also fail. People will simply return to barter, and the use of whatever precious metals/stones/etc are hot that year.

I don't see this as a given. I for one would be more than happy to have a cashless society, and I would struggle to believe that I'm unique out of the ~7 billion there are of us.

Have an upvote. But also try to understand why many people are uncomfortable with the idea that even modest transactions can be monitored by governmental agencies. In practice, there are always ways to work outside the system of course. But to the degree these become real exceptions they become that much more suspicious as a result.

Re: In praise of cash

#225
post #9

The core concept to remember I think is that there are two ways to pay for things: * Ways that involve cash or cash equivalents * Ways where a purchase requires the permission of someone else Just think of the word authorization, which is a required element of essentially all non-cash transactions. It has the word authority embedded right in it. If you're OK with that concept, you are necessarily OK with the idea tha…

Uh, no.

Paying with cash is exchanging a promise that someone else, usually the central bank, will pay the bearer on demand the value of the promissory note.

Even if you could actually exchange the note for its equivalent in precious metals — which you can't — you're still just exchanging a token without intrinsic value. Its only value is conferred entirely by the monetary whims of the government.

Governments can, and have, on multiple occasions, completely disregarded sensible monetary policy and started printing money when they didn't have enough of it, totally destroying the value of people's cash in hand through hyperinflation. This is something you have literally no defense against.

When paying with some other method, we need to make a clear distinction between debit and credit.

If I pay with a credit card, I am asking someone else, usually a bank, to lend me the money to pay. Obviously, in such a situation, they have the right to refuse, albeit only in accordance with any pre-existing legal agreements between us.

If I pay with a debit card, I am asking one my debtors, usually a bank, to repay part of the debt they owe me to the person of my choosing. They may choose to be somewhat awkward about this, but they fundamentally cannot choose to disregard the debt they owe me, so long as they wish to remain solvent. Nor do they, in any meaningful sense, have the ability to grant or refuse "permission" to pay. They owe me money and, subject to the relevant bankruptcy laws, any pre-existing legal agreements between us, reasonable anti-fraud measures, etc., they have to pay.

None of this has anything to do with the issue of "freedom". It is simply a matter of the way financial transactions work in modern society. The amount of money in the economy hugely exceeds the amount of cash in circulation. Most money exists in the form of credit and debt. Your money exists in the form of credit and debt.

There is nothing scary or unfree about having money in the form of a debt the bank owes you, compared to having it as promissory notes from the government, or as legal deeds to property, or precious metals with a market value. Each and every store of value is entirely reliant upon the continued proper functioning of the market, the legal system and the government.

Money in the form a bank deposit is probably the safest way to store moderate amounts of money. As a physical entity, cash can be damaged, lost, stolen, etc. And the only person affected by this is you, meaning you have no common cause with any other person to recover your losses. A bank's stability and existence is underwritten by the livelihoods of all its customers, employees and investors.

Re: In praise of cash

#226
post #9

The core concept to remember I think is that there are two ways to pay for things: * Ways that involve cash or cash equivalents * Ways where a purchase requires the permission of someone else Just think of the word authorization, which is a required element of essentially all non-cash transactions. It has the word authority embedded right in it. If you're OK with that concept, you are necessarily OK with the idea tha…

Uh, no. Paying with cash is exchanging a promise that someone else, usually the central bank, will pay the bearer on demand the value of the promissory note. Even if you could actually exchange the note for its equivalent in precious metals — which you can't — you're still just exchanging a token without intrinsic value. Its only value is conferred entirely by the monetary whims of the government. Governments can, an…

there is nothing inherent in the idea of "cash" that ties it to a central bank. you make an excellent point about our particular implementation of cash as being controlled by the central bank, but your comments don't refute the OP regarding the non-freedom of non-cash systems.

Re: In praise of cash

#227
post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If either party falls out of favour with the bank, they can't do business with each other. For an immediately ready example, I present Paypal Seller/Buyer disputes on eBay. I'm always a little tickled by tech people hyping the idea of a cashless society. Don't we all hate Paypal?

Pretty much. I tried using my account from France, and now my account is locked, and there are a bunch of hoops to jump through to restore access. No thanks.

It's a matter of better governance though. Ideally, anti-trust government entities should monitor how companies like PayPal operate.

Re: In praise of cash

#228
post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pretty much. I tried using my account from France, and now my account is locked, and there are a bunch of hoops to jump through to restore access. No thanks.

It's a matter of better governance though. Ideally, anti-trust government entities should monitor how companies like PayPal operate.

I don't trust the governments and nanny states. Does that qualify as anti-trust? Better governance is lack of it, lack of corrupt government officials that work hand in hand with the financial institutions that sponsor them to take our freedoms away for their mutual benefit.

Re: In praise of cash

#229
post #18

My biggest concern is the frightening fact that all of these cashless systems are powered by private, for-profit banks. I'd be more fine with a move to cashless if the fundamental system which powered it were operated by the Fed (for free, as a public service), not Visa or Mastercard.

...as though the Fed is chartered entirely for public benefit? The structure of the 12 Fed district banks are very similar to private corporations. The whole system is run for the benefit of the US Treasury and (secondarily) the private member banks that hold stock in the district banks. It's there to keep the system solvent and stable. And it may be required to remit all profits to the treasury, but the Fed is not there to protect the general public, and if Hollywood has taught us anything, it is that the meaning of "profit" can be blurred with clever accounting.

I would only be fine with cashless if the power inherent in the system were diffused, such that no single entity could exercise significant control over it, and if it were supported by laws, such that attempting a 51% attack (perhaps by merger or secret collusion) would get those responsible thrown in PMitA prison for their dire felonies.

You let the Fed control it, and they'll just use it to print money, much like they do now with paper money and bank deposits. For some, that may be a beneficial feature, but I think the power to control the size of the money supply is simply too dangerous for any one group to wield it unchecked. And I think the Fed's ongoing policy of targeting a positive rate of inflation has harmed the whole US-dollar economy to a greater extent than the problems that are hypothesized to have been avoided by it.

You put one nexus of control on the whole money supply, and that's where all the crooks will go to get their scores. Bitcoin had the right idea in trying to solve the Byzantine Generals problem, because I don't trust any big financial institution to handle money alone, but I do trust them all to distrust one another enough to gang up against anyone that tries to pull off a coup.

Re: In praise of cash

#230
post #9

The core concept to remember I think is that there are two ways to pay for things: * Ways that involve cash or cash equivalents * Ways where a purchase requires the permission of someone else Just think of the word authorization, which is a required element of essentially all non-cash transactions. It has the word authority embedded right in it. If you're OK with that concept, you are necessarily OK with the idea tha…

Bingo, I think you nailed it. The cashless society – which more accurately should be called the bank-payments society... is a utopia where money cannot leave – or even exist – outside the banking system, but can only be transferred from bank to bank. Such a system replaces a relationship between two parties with relationships between those parties and the bank. If either party falls out of favour with the bank, they…

Bitcoin, bro.
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