How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide • Hacker News Board

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#291

Post by darawk » Fri, Mar 03, 2017, 9:00 PM UTC

mavrc wrote: post #167

darawk wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The 'say' you have in government is much smaller than the 'say' you have in using Uber. I can choose not to use Uber any time I please. I can not choose not to be pulled over for speeding, or opt out of murder laws temporarily. The fact that you don't have a say in Uber's corporate decisions is irrelevant, because you can simply stop using it. You don't need a say. The fact that you can't opt out of government is why…

> The 'say' you have in government is much smaller than the 'say' you have in using Uber. I can choose not to use Uber any time I please. True. I have effectively no choice in ISP, and no choice in power company. At what point do I get to vote on seats on my ISP's board, or my power company's?

That's quite different. ISPs are regulated in a special way because they are monopolies. Monopolies occupy a middle ground between government and company. A business monopoly is like a mild/weak form of government.

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#292

Post by jfoutz » Fri, Mar 03, 2017, 9:00 PM UTC

lacampbell wrote: post #68

maldusiecle wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My perspective is the opposite. In a world where large multinationals have the power to evade the law in a deliberate and systematic way like this, it's easy for governments to claim they need the same kind of power. Things like this are exactly what bureaucrats point to when they make their arguments for a surveillance state. I don't like the US government much, but I like it a lot better than the average multinatio…

I don't like the US government much, but I like it a lot better than the average multinational. When it comes down to it, we don't have more than our choice of devils. If I don't like Uber, I can... stop using Uber. What can I do if I don't like the service a state provides - can I opt out and stop paying? No, my only option is to flee - which the state will often try and prevent you doing anyway. The state is a huge…

You can't really stop unlicensed autonomous vehicles from running red lights in your home town though. Just because you don't pay them, doesn't mean they don't affect you.

I'm not going to change your mind on statism, and don't really want to, but a key component of statism is the massive power advantage they have over you. A multinational does not have a state level power advantage, but they're still much more powerful than you. If they choose to act in an immoral way, there's not much you can do about it.

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#293

Post by austenallred » Fri, Mar 03, 2017, 9:01 PM UTC

jfoutz wrote: post #263

us0r wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe not a popular opinion but I find this entire thing pure genius. >I couldn't find a good source, but it doesn't seem like that's something a CC merchant would have access to. Do they really get to see that? The first 6 digits of a credit card can identify the issuing bank (BIN number - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Payment_card_number ). If you ask your merchant they can readily provide you and up to date list.…

I agree. It's genius in a Lex Luthor kind of way. If I understood the full scope of the application, I like to think i'd decline to work on that. It's easy to imagine engineers working on small parts of the system, and never really connecting the dots that the whole point is to evade law enforcement. There's a big difference between keeping secrets for market advantage and to evade the law. In the first case, I want…

I would imagine there are people who don't view it as a breach of ethics. And those types are probably more inclined to be working at Uber on the first place.

I mean if you really believe the various transportations administrations are corrupt and that the way to solve it is to temporarily disregard the law, then Uber is probably the place to be

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#294

Post by ubernostrum » Fri, Mar 03, 2017, 9:01 PM UTC

snappyTertle wrote: post #221

a3n wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And a better question than that is: should a corporation be picking and choosing which laws they follow and which they don't?

And an even better question: Would we need to ask ourselves these questions if these nonsense laws didn't exist?

Of course not. If we got rid of all these laws the corporations would simply enforce terms of service on us, containing whatever they want. And then would argue that we freely entered into those terms of our own free will by being born where we were and when we were!

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#295

Post by darawk » Fri, Mar 03, 2017, 9:01 PM UTC

nemacol wrote: post #198

darawk wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The 'say' you have in government is much smaller than the 'say' you have in using Uber. I can choose not to use Uber any time I please. I can not choose not to be pulled over for speeding, or opt out of murder laws temporarily. The fact that you don't have a say in Uber's corporate decisions is irrelevant, because you can simply stop using it. You don't need a say. The fact that you can't opt out of government is why…

You can choose not to use Uber and effectively ignore them but that does not stop them from having an influence on you, your community, and your country. It is true that being part of a government system is not a choice but without that community you would be dead or at least not an educated human with internet access. You cannot reap the rewards of government, community, and progress and then turn around and want to…

> You cannot reap the rewards of government, community, and progress and then turn around and want to abolish the systems that made those things possible just because you cannot speed and murder people.

What systems are those, exactly? Protectionist laws for taxi drivers?

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#296

Post by sgift » Fri, Mar 03, 2017, 9:02 PM UTC

Karunamon wrote: post #275

sgift wrote: post #264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the government had lost the consent of the governed it wouldn't have been elected / it won't be elected again. That's basically what all this is about. Sure, democracy, elections, all this things may not be the best system, but it is very effective at damage control. You don't govern well? You're out after four or five years. All other system known have far worse damage control.

Alternative view: The government has lost the consent of the governed, but people are so engrossed in other stuff that they don't do anything about it due to how painful the upheaval would be. In other words, it's tolerated rather than accepted. Roman poets would call this "bread and circuses".

Every revolution in history is proof that this doesn't really work. If the government really looses the approval of the governed and not just of a small minority revolution will follow.

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#297

Post by leephillips » Fri, Mar 03, 2017, 9:02 PM UTC

Karunamon wrote: post #189

adamsea wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The article describes deliberate behavior by Uber to circumvent the law of the land. You might not like the law, but if you believe in the principle of rule of law, then, you should not be OK with this. Otherwise, there's no reason for other companies to, say, pollute the water supply, dump smog into the air, deliver dangerously unsafe foodstuffs or products to consumers, i.e., break the law.

This is a dichotomy I reject. Laws should be evaluated on an individual basis, not as a body, otherwise you're logically obligated to be as bothered at people going 51 in a 50 as rape and murder. On top of that, many laws are bogus, pointless, useless, more are actively harmful . Hell, Uber got a start by flaunting a law that had little actual use in the real world save for protecting monopolists with very flimsy pre…

"Uber got a start by flaunting a law" "You probably flaunt the speed limit"

Probably not what you intended to say.

More substantially, I think the licensing regulations for taxis (that's what you have in mind, no?) are far from obviously of "little actual use". This would vary greatly by region; I understand that London and Tokyo, for example, require taxi drivers to prove familiarity with their city's layout before being allowed to take passengers. Maybe this is to enforce a monopoly, or maybe it's for the benefit of the public. It's at least debatable.

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#298

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Mar 03, 2017, 9:02 PM UTC

maldusiecle wrote: post #24

HorizonXP wrote: post #6

How diabolical! In a world where privacy has been traded away for convenience, it's poetic justice where a startup uses data mining techniques to subvert the government. This is the same government that would have no issues to use the same techniques to spy on its own people for its own motives. I'm neither on Uber nor the government's side in this case, just simply making an observation. The lack of data privacy see…

My perspective is the opposite. In a world where large multinationals have the power to evade the law in a deliberate and systematic way like this, it's easy for governments to claim they need the same kind of power. Things like this are exactly what bureaucrats point to when they make their arguments for a surveillance state. I don't like the US government much, but I like it a lot better than the average multinatio…

[deleted]

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#299

Post by tarunm » Fri, Mar 03, 2017, 9:02 PM UTC

If anything, I find this very clever. While there are many valid reasons that justify anger against Uber (workplace harassment and predatory pricing), I don't think this is one. Instead of outlawing Uber, cities and governments should take a step back and reflect on these laws which Uber has proven servers no one.

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#300

Post by ubernostrum » Fri, Mar 03, 2017, 9:02 PM UTC

SilasX wrote: post #212

chris_wot wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd like to see them subpoenaed to explain what they were doing. They were deliberately violating the law, and trying to avoid detection just makes things much, much worse. This has got to be illegal.

The article says Uber's legal team approved it: >At least 50 to 60 people inside Uber knew about Greyball, and some had qualms about whether it was ethical or legal. Greyball was approved by Uber’s legal team, headed by Salle Yoo, the general counsel. I (though not a lawyer) assume their reasoning was: "It's legal to use public sources to identify possible law enforcement agents, it's legal to deny services to them.…

Well, that's a bold legal strategy if true -- I wonder why Microsoft simply didn't put it in the Windows license agreement that government users couldn't sue them for antitrust violations!

(Uber's real argument seems to be "it violates our terms of service for a government official to try to figure out if we're following the law")