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Buried Alive: Stories from Inside Solitary Confinement

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Re: Buried Alive: Stories from Inside Solitary Confinement

#71

Post by MaxfordAndSons »

ploggingdev wrote: post #2

> the federal government and about half of the states in the country began restricting their use of solitary. These efforts gained bipartisan support for economical, not compassionate, reasons That is the most telling line about how the Government thinks. Do these people not think about how cruel solitary confinement is? The best way to make people understand these cruel practices is to imagine themselves in solitary…

Have you ever noticed that "cruel and unusual punishment", the famous standard for what will be considered the acceptable limit of legal punishment, in fact implicitly sanctions cruelty in our legal system? If severe cruelty is the norm then it is considered just, indeed even fair and necessary, that that cruelty be normalized and extended to all those under the punitive regime.

There is a deep vein of cruelty in American history. I personally believe it is significantly rooted in Puritan theology - self-denial and self-abnegation are both forms of self-inflicted cruelty, and if one is cruel to oneself, both in daily practice and in the broader sense of ones philosophical beliefs and worldview (i.e. believing you are a sinner, believing you are in a state of perpetual spiritual disgrace), then cruelty becomes a foundational principle of your relationship with the world and other people.

Re: Buried Alive: Stories from Inside Solitary Confinement

#73

Post by logfromblammo »

entropyneur wrote: post #9

On the intellectual level I have absolutely no reason to doubt the scientific evidence or the countless accounts of people who were subjected to solitary imprisonment and describe it as torture and worst thing that ever happened to them. I remember a documentary (probably NatGeo's "America's hardest prisons") episode where a violent and seemingly fearless thug was reduced to a crying baby by 2 weeks of solitary confi…

Whenever I start to think that solitary confinement might not be so bad, I remind myself that everyone in solitary can always have someone like Tyler Durden for their cellmate.

The isolation cell is a crucible for whatever crazy you may already have inside of you, and when they finally release you, it has been purified and sharpened.

That strikes me as an incredibly dangerous thing to gamble with. You may be turning a person with sociopathic tendencies into a stone-cold serial killer. Or you may be turning a slightly neurotic person into a helpless, useless wreck. Or you may be turning a slightly self-destructive person into a suicide. Do you really want to completely remove someone's societal feedback for extended periods of time, and then see how their compensation strategies work when they are expected to reintegrate with civilization? Solitary has literally trained a person to function only inside a tiny box with no one else in it. What would you expect to happen afterward?

Re: Buried Alive: Stories from Inside Solitary Confinement

#75

Post by amorphid »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #58
amorphid wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A not-trolling, serious question... If they shouldn't be punished, what would you recommend? I don't have a well-informed suggestion.

The way I see it, there are two aspects you want to balance: safety of the society and cost of ensuring that safety. When you have a person that commits crimes due to severe mental issues, you could observe that: - punishment won't work as a deterrent - punishment definitely won't work as resocialization tool - it's of questionable morality to blame a person for things they have no control over Applying punishment in…

Thanks.

It's gets interesting that when a person with a treatable condition doesn't want to be treated.

Re: Buried Alive: Stories from Inside Solitary Confinement

#76

Post by jMyles »

ars wrote: post #63
jMyles wrote: post #52

Stories of torture at the hands of the state, in a domestic correctional context, are everywhere. This is a confirmed, observable phenomenon, not subject to much conjecture or doubt. And it's time to smash it. Thinking that some slow, incremental legislative progress is going to fix this problem is pulling a blanket of privilege over eyes and ears. When Washington falls, which it will, we must immediately turn to our…

Your plan would make things unbelievably worse. And I don't understand how you don't see this. You reject a legislative process, and also want to shame people who work in prisons. So basically you are blocking the only two possible paths to accomplish your goals: Either new laws, or reform from the inside. How can you be so short sighted?

What makes you think that these tactics represent "the only two possible paths?"

Re: Buried Alive: Stories from Inside Solitary Confinement

#77

Post by jMyles »

alex_hitchins wrote: post #61
jMyles wrote: post #52

Stories of torture at the hands of the state, in a domestic correctional context, are everywhere. This is a confirmed, observable phenomenon, not subject to much conjecture or doubt. And it's time to smash it. Thinking that some slow, incremental legislative progress is going to fix this problem is pulling a blanket of privilege over eyes and ears. When Washington falls, which it will, we must immediately turn to our…

> shame people who decide to work in the prison industry (I know this sounds cruel, but it's less cruel than refraining from doing so), and speak out in square company. Not everyone working in the prison system is evil. There are good people there wanting to help people.

Absolutely - I acknowledge that.

But at this point, I assert that we need to deprive the system of labor, especially from good people.

I think it's a very legitimate form of protest.

Re: Buried Alive: Stories from Inside Solitary Confinement

#78

Post by p1esk »

mfringel wrote: post #65
IsaacL wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you know how much people suffer if their house is broken into, if they are robbed at gunpoint, if they are raped, etc? Not just the direct harm, but the ongoing psychological harm?

Will the perpetrator's suffering make the victim un-robbed?

It might make some victims feel better, which can be considered a form of a moral compensation.

Re: Buried Alive: Stories from Inside Solitary Confinement

#79

Post by mfringel »

p1esk wrote: post #78
mfringel wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Will the perpetrator's suffering make the victim un-robbed?

It might make some victims feel better, which can be considered a form of a moral compensation.

It might.... under what circumstances? some victims.... which ones? can be considered.... by who?

Re: Buried Alive: Stories from Inside Solitary Confinement

#80

Post by Natsu »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #58
amorphid wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A not-trolling, serious question... If they shouldn't be punished, what would you recommend? I don't have a well-informed suggestion.

The way I see it, there are two aspects you want to balance: safety of the society and cost of ensuring that safety. When you have a person that commits crimes due to severe mental issues, you could observe that: - punishment won't work as a deterrent - punishment definitely won't work as resocialization tool - it's of questionable morality to blame a person for things they have no control over Applying punishment in…

> If the condition is not currently treatable, you can isolate the person from society - but this will already win you all the safety you can get, so there's no point in punishing them further.

We have to remember here that some prisoners are a danger even to their cellmates--I've heard of some who threatened to kill any cell mate, then did so. For that population of violent people who are a danger to everyone, isolating them could be both harmful to the prisoner, but the right move for society.

Though I suppose it's an open question whether executing such prisoners would lead to less suffering.

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