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Why we are not leaving the cloud

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Re: Why we are not leaving the cloud

#131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The cloud isn't a money-saving tactic. If it requires no or a smaller ops team then it seems like it might be.

Generally you're hitting the cheap part of your ops team. The rack and stack, and dc technicians. You start seeing the real savings when you move up to using higher services like managed databases, and analytics engines.

I think that's right. We tend to see fragmentation w/ our hybrid approach. Teams doing DevOps type stuff with VMware/vRA on internal hardware and also on AWS/Azure. "Customers" of each environment also tend to be different so priority conflicts arise.

Could be solved by more staffing, I suppose...

Re: Why we are not leaving the cloud

#132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Google ran on desktop computers for a long time. If anything, the cloud is less reliable than individual machines once were. You have no control over when or why one of your VM's goes down, and there's nothing you can do but wait and hope everything comes back in short order. I've had degraded instances screw my customers websites many many times in AWS. On our VMware cluster I never have any such issues because I ma…

> You have no control over when or why one of your VM's goes down, and there's nothing you can do but wait and hope everything comes back in short order. Except that most cloud providers offer replication and load balancing, integrated directly into their other products already. They spent a lot of time making sure that it works so you don't have to. Yes, shit happens. But shit happens everywhere, and it is far more…

This belief is the problem. Most cloud services are not automatically redundant.

They have stuff that will allow you to make your stuff redundant if you know how to architect, configure, and deploy it, but you don't get these benefits just by becoming an AWS customer. You have to know how to set up an ELB just the same as you have to know how to set up haproxy on bare metal.

Is it easier to configure an ELB than a haproxy instance? Probably, but it's not that much harder, and configuration is mostly a one-time cost. Pay someone on staff to spend a couple of hours testing and configuring haproxy or pay 3x more than you should every month to rent VMs on Amazon? Which one is cheaper over "the long term"?

All you're doing is renting some space in a server. The configuration is still mostly up to the user. Hardware requires maintenance, yes, but people are really hamming up both the frequency and difficulty of hardware maintenance.

Re: Why we are not leaving the cloud

#133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your opinion isn't really that original. There are plenty of old-school sysadmins who will insist that the cloud is a hoax. They'll fight tooth and nail to avoid it. Eventually, someone fires them and moves to the cloud with significant savings. There are some scenarios where it makes sense to run bare metal, but they're few and far between. If you've evaluated the (capital, operational, and human) costs of cloud vs.…

I've seen businesses move to the cloud and cost themselves millions of dollars in doing so. I'm not sure where you're coming from believing that cloud always offers a massive savings. It's possible that in some circumstances, cloud will be cheaper, but I actually think that more often than not, it's more expensive. It's ludicrous that you suggest that anyone who is not willing to dive head-first into 100% cloud every…

I have not once said that cloud is the only option. You're arguing with a straw man.

If you're spending millions on infrastructure, you should absolutely do a rigorous analysis of whether the cloud is better or worse.

Re: Why we are not leaving the cloud

#134

So everyone says the cloud is the future. I get it. But is this the truth, or what all the tech giants want people to believe? Don your foil hats for a moment and listen to me. All the original internet companies run their own hardware. They rent out excess production capacity to us peons in the form of cloud services. These companies that all run their own hardware exclusively are telling everyone that it's stupid t…

I don't know that I'd say Netflix is completely at the mercy of Amazon. Sure, if AWS goes down, Netflix goes down. But that would be true enough for they ran all of their own stuff, too... "Netflix is completely at the mercy of their ops team". One of the big points of the cloud is that is gives one the ability to do things that one would trouble doing without the cloud. A small business with a single part-time devel…

> Sure, if AWS goes down, Netflix goes down.

Well. AWS went down (part of it), but Netflix stayed alive.

Re: Why we are not leaving the cloud

#135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay, help me out here. Here's my math: I move about 10 TB of bandwidth a month, I currently am in a DC that offers me 30TB on gigabit for $90/mo for my 1U box that hosts my small business and a few development systems - my server cost me a total of $1500 with 72GB of RAM and 4x3TB drives in RAID10, so I have 6TB of disk that's about at 50% capacity. To go to Amazon EC2 let's see... 64 GB of RAM for $0.862 should do…

3 things I think you should consider in this situation. 1. Reserved instances. If you've got a running business and are expecting to be around for 1-3 years, you get 40-60% discount on that 4xlarge. 2. Do you want to move the service exactly as it is? Maybe you don't need the large ebs? Maybe you can rewrite the storage to S3 instead which is much cheaper? Do you have heavy, sporadic tasks that you can move out of yo…

Why should he re-architect his system and introduce some Amazon-specific dependencies like S3 just so he can give Amazon money? How much development time and money will he spend trying to make his setup work on AWS? How many new bugs will he accidentally introduce in the process? How badly will moving to cloud storage via S3 affect his performance v. having the files on a local disk? When S3 outages like the one that happened two days ago occur, will his customers be understanding of his decision to move into the cloud for funsies?

It's really amazing that, when faced with clear evidence of the expense involved in moving to AWS, you suggest that he prepay for a year of service up-front and redesign his application just so Amazon's bill doesn't look so egregious anymore.

My experience aligns with his. We moved from racks with 20-something boxes to EC2 with 100+ instances. Our monthly bill was 80% of the cost of the hardware in our data center.

How did we solve this problem? Why, move to Docker and Kubernetes of course! Over a year of manpower has been devoted to that task. What kind of savage would ever return to bare metal in this enlightened age of expending millions of manhours redoing stuff that was already working perfectly well?

If you want to autoscale, autoscale on the cloud and keep your primary nodes on bare metal. There's no need to start forking over millions of extra dollars to cloud providers to host all of your infrastructure.

Cloud has some unique benefits, but it should be used for those unique benefits only. There's no reason everything has to be moved there.

Re: Why we are not leaving the cloud

#136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've seen businesses move to the cloud and cost themselves millions of dollars in doing so. I'm not sure where you're coming from believing that cloud always offers a massive savings. It's possible that in some circumstances, cloud will be cheaper, but I actually think that more often than not, it's more expensive. It's ludicrous that you suggest that anyone who is not willing to dive head-first into 100% cloud every…

I have not once said that cloud is the only option. You're arguing with a straw man. If you're spending millions on infrastructure, you should absolutely do a rigorous analysis of whether the cloud is better or worse.

Yeah, it's not a direct quote. However, that is how I interpret the sentiment that those who fight the cloud will be fired. You suggest that's an unfair interpretation? You can say "cloud may not be the only option" all you want, but "those who oppose cloud will be fired" ensures that somehow, everyone in your organization will believe the cloud to be a supremely good option. :)

Re: Why we are not leaving the cloud

#137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay, help me out here. Here's my math: I move about 10 TB of bandwidth a month, I currently am in a DC that offers me 30TB on gigabit for $90/mo for my 1U box that hosts my small business and a few development systems - my server cost me a total of $1500 with 72GB of RAM and 4x3TB drives in RAID10, so I have 6TB of disk that's about at 50% capacity. To go to Amazon EC2 let's see... 64 GB of RAM for $0.862 should do…

What about the personnel costs? Also, what about the instantaneous bandwidth. If you have huge demand spikes where you need a lot of bandwidth at one time, can your system handle it?

> What about the personnel costs?

I have no idea where people came from when they moved to AWS/etc but I always have (and still do) picked up the phone and got someone on the line who usually fixes whatever the issue is with me on the phone.

As far as demand spikes - even smaller hosting companies will have hardware they can spin up pretty quick.

Re: Why we are not leaving the cloud

#138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

3 things I think you should consider in this situation. 1. Reserved instances. If you've got a running business and are expecting to be around for 1-3 years, you get 40-60% discount on that 4xlarge. 2. Do you want to move the service exactly as it is? Maybe you don't need the large ebs? Maybe you can rewrite the storage to S3 instead which is much cheaper? Do you have heavy, sporadic tasks that you can move out of yo…

Why should he re-architect his system and introduce some Amazon-specific dependencies like S3 just so he can give Amazon money? How much development time and money will he spend trying to make his setup work on AWS? How many new bugs will he accidentally introduce in the process? How badly will moving to cloud storage via S3 affect his performance v. having the files on a local disk? When S3 outages like the one that…

I'm trying to compare costs in a better way than "lift app from here and move it there". Sure, you can do it that way, but you're moving an app which was written with your current architecture in mind. It's not surprising it will be more expensive after the move.

I'm not advocating to rewrite just to give Amazon money - you're creating straw man arguments here.

I'm just saying that if we're comparing different ways of hosting, we shouldn't pretend they work the same and have the same tradeoffs. Maybe one server approach is optimal. Maybe the cost would be smaller if the service would be split into various components. That's all part of a proper comparison. Including the cost of getting from one arch to the other.

Specific example:

> How badly will moving to cloud storage via S3 affect his performance v. having the files on a local disk?

Depends what they do with the data and how the users interact with it. Maybe there's no data that could be migrated (all records need to be available in memory for the web app), maybe it would be slower but have a trade-off of using smaller instance, maybe it would improve the performance considerably because file-like blobs are not stored in the database anymore and users can get them quicker via local cloudfront caches. There's no generic answer!

As for the outage... S3 was down for a few hours. And for many people it happened when they were sleeping. If your single server goes down in a data centre - what's your cost and time of recovery? S3 going down once a year still gives many companies better availability than they could ever achieve on their own.

If the need to reassess the architecture doesn't convince you this way, think about migrating from AWS to own hardware. If you were using S3, sqs, lambda and other services, are you going to plan for standing up highly available replacements of them on separate physical hosts? (Omg, we need so much hardware!) Or will you consider if it can be all replaced with just redis and cron if you have relatively little data?

Re: Why we are not leaving the cloud

#139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The cloud isn't a money-saving tactic. If it requires no or a smaller ops team then it seems like it might be.

Generally you're hitting the cheap part of your ops team. The rack and stack, and dc technicians. You start seeing the real savings when you move up to using higher services like managed databases, and analytics engines.

Anecdotally, I used to be on a two-man team and switching to Azure made life insanely better.

Re: Why we are not leaving the cloud

#140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hey, you are a liar. He is very sure that the cloud saving money has always been a damn lie! To hell with your data. /s

what data?

"I can tell you with 100% certainty that the savings are there and have seen financial proof of the savings.".

My attempted joke wouldn't make sense outside of this context

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