Earlier quoted context omitted.
To be fair Linux distros have improved a LOT in the past 5 years. When I first used Ubuntu many years ago, you couldn't do anything without the command line. Installing software was a pain (I had tons of problem with Ubuntu Software Center and it never seemed to work). I use Ubuntu (Gnome) these days. The only thing I miss from Windows is Windows Explorer. Nautilus just doesn't cut it in my opinion; I always end up b…
"Installing software was a mess." Of all the things to complain about in Linux, you choose the one thing that Mac OS and Windows still don't have right, and Linux had pretty good even back then?
The Collapse of the Unix Philosophy
31–40 of 616 posts
Re: The Collapse of the Unix Philosophy
#32Sounds like the author needs to read Worse Is Better ( https://www.jwz.org/doc/worse-is-better.html ).
Re: The Collapse of the Unix Philosophy
#33Probably the biggest one is that UNIX is, at bottom, a terminal-oriented multi-user time sharing system. This maps badly to desktop, mobile, and server systems. The protection model is a mismatch for all those purposes. (Programs have the authority of the user. Not so good today as in the 1970s.) The administration model also matches badly. Vast amounts of superstructure have been built to get around that mismatch. (Hello, containers, virtualization, etc.) Interprocess communication came late to UNIX/Linux, and it's still not a core component. (The one-way pipe mindset is too deeply ingrained in the UNIX world.)
Re: The Collapse of the Unix Philosophy
#34Although I agree that Unix is a big collection of hacks and well past its prime, the author displays several fundamental misconceptions of what he's talking about. Here's a few examples: - Dirty hacks in UNIX started to arise when UNIX was released, and it was long before Windows came to the scene, I guess there wasn’t even Microsoft DOS at the time (I guess and I don’t bother to check, so check it yourself). At leas…
Yeah, I found that one an especially weird gripe. Grepping was a new thing, so we needed a word for it. 'Grep' is short, easy to say and type, and relatively hard to confuse with similar words in the domain. Works for me.
I can unfortunately imagine a modern startup implementing it, and shudder at potential names my imagination is coming up with... Searchlr, the best way to search text! ReadMonkey, your personal pattern recognizer! I'll stop now.
Re: The Collapse of the Unix Philosophy
#35Everyone should, at some point, read The Unix-Haters Handbook. A great deal of it is outdated or simply wrong, but it does have a running theme of a prediction that has largely been borne out: people assuming that all Unix's flaws are actually virtues and that if you don't think so, then you Just Don't Get It. It's not hard to see how this happened: since pretty much all computers that people normally interact with a…
I did not know about this! http://web.mit.edu/~simsong/www/ugh.pdf It even has an anti-foreword by Dennis Ritchie which kinda reminds me of the Metropolitan Police spokesman's blurb on the back of Banksy's book. BTW, it starts off with an anonymous quote that I've never heard, Two of the most famous products of Berkeley are LSD and Unix. Unix is of course from Bell Labs. And anyone who knew anything would have said i…
Oh for the days when 750kB was considered "massive" for a binary.
Re: The Collapse of the Unix Philosophy
#36This article was written hastily, and I don’t want to further improve it. You’re lucky I wrote it. I feel so privileged to read this random guy's blog, and it's terrific that he eschews inflating his ego so well.
Re: The Collapse of the Unix Philosophy
#37Earlier quoted context omitted.
"Installing software was a mess." Of all the things to complain about in Linux, you choose the one thing that Mac OS and Windows still don't have right, and Linux had pretty good even back then?
Installation on Windows was always much easier; all programs had a relatively consistent UI wizard that stepped you through the installation process. Installing software from disks on Windows was really convenient (and disks where the real deal back then). The fact that Linux relied on people to install stuff with the command line was a massive oversight. UIs are just way more intuitive than shell commands.
It's when you go to uninstall or upgrade it that you realize what a mess it is.
Re: The Collapse of the Unix Philosophy
#38Everyone should, at some point, read The Unix-Haters Handbook. A great deal of it is outdated or simply wrong, but it does have a running theme of a prediction that has largely been borne out: people assuming that all Unix's flaws are actually virtues and that if you don't think so, then you Just Don't Get It. It's not hard to see how this happened: since pretty much all computers that people normally interact with a…
I did not know about this! http://web.mit.edu/~simsong/www/ugh.pdf It even has an anti-foreword by Dennis Ritchie which kinda reminds me of the Metropolitan Police spokesman's blurb on the back of Banksy's book. BTW, it starts off with an anonymous quote that I've never heard, Two of the most famous products of Berkeley are LSD and Unix. Unix is of course from Bell Labs. And anyone who knew anything would have said i…
From: dmr@plan9.research.att.com Date: Tue, 15 Mar 1994 00:38:07 EST Subject: anti-foreword
To the contributers to this book:
I have succumbed to the temptation you offered in your preface: I do write you off as envious malcontents and romantic keepers of memories. The systems you remember so fondly (TOPS-20, ITS, Multics, Lisp Machine, Cedar/Mesa, the Dorado) are not just out to pasture, they are fertilizing it from below.
Your judgments are not keen, they are intoxicated by metaphor. In the Preface you suffer first from heat, lice, and malnourishment, then become prisoners in a Gulag. In Chapter 1 you are in turn infected by a virus, racked by drug addiction, and addled by puffiness of the genome.
Yet your prison without coherent design continues to imprison you. How can this be, if it has no strong places? The rational prisoner exploits the weak places, creates order from chaos: instead, collectives like the FSF vindicate their jailers by building cells almost com- patible with the existing ones, albeit with more features. The journalist with three undergraduate degrees from MIT, the researcher at Microsoft, and the senior scientist at Apple might volunteer a few words about the regulations of the prisons to which they have been transferred.
Your sense of the possible is in no sense pure: sometimes you want the same thing you have, but wish you had done it yourselves; other times you want something different, but can't seem to get people to use it; sometimes one wonders why you just don't shut up and tell people to buy a PC with Windows or a Mac. No Gulag or lice, just a future whose intellectual tone and interaction style is set by Sonic the Hedgehog. You claim to seek progress, but you succeed mainly in whining.
Here is my metaphor: your book is a pudding stuffed with apposite observations, many well-conceived. Like excrement, it contains enough undigested nuggets of nutrition to sustain life for some. But it is not a tasty pie: it reeks too much of contempt and of envy. Bon appetit!
Re: The Collapse of the Unix Philosophy
#39Unix as we know it is almost 50 years of accretion - sh/bash is a great example of this. I think the Unix philosophy is still sound and alive, but the movement of technology means not everything that was universal before, is now.
What is missing in many cases is a concepts guide, explaining the key ideas, how to combine things, and what's possible in various subject areas.
For GUI programs, menus / toolbars used to be the concept guide: what they show is what's possible, and they offer context help. This is why a GUI feels friendly. It sucks at composability, though. Current mobile interfaces, unfortunately, tend to lack this.
If tiny GUI-oriented programs were easy to compose, had an easy way to save the composed state, and a number of daily-use programs bundled with an OS came in this form, providing example and reference, many people would consider following the suit, I suppose.
[1]: http://softwareengineering.stackexchange.com/questions/61814...
Re: The Collapse of the Unix Philosophy
#40"...great and perfect" is a strawman. Whether "some people" think that is irrelevant.
Some of this article is interesting, but the fact of the matter is 40-year-old systems have signs of being 40 years old. If "fixing" everything were easy, it'd be done. Tabs in Makefiles throw off the uninitiated for 10 minutes, then they learn, shrug and move on. These scars and stories are part of the package.
Reading further, some of this is just incorrect...
>That’s not to mention the fact that critical UNIX files (such as /etc/passwd) that are read upon every (!) call, say, ls -l, are plain text files. The system reads and parses these files again and again, after every single call!
Not on my system.
> It would be much better to use a binary format. Or a database.
On my system, it is ( running "ls -ld ."):
kamloops$ uname -a
NetBSD kamloops 7.99.64 NetBSD 7.99.64 (GENERIC) #26: Thu Mar 2 07:15:26 PST 2017 root@kamloops:/usr/src/sys/arch/amd64/compile/obj/GENERIC amd64
kamloops# dtrace -x nolibs -n ':syscall::open:entry /execname == "ls" / { printf("%s -%s", execname, copyinstr(arg0));}'
dtrace: description ':syscall::open:entry ' matched 1 probe
CPU ID FUNCTION:NAME
0 14 open:entry ls -/etc/ld.so.conf
0 14 open:entry ls -/lib/libutil.so.7
0 14 open:entry ls -/lib/libc.so.12
0 14 open:entry ls -.
0 14 open:entry ls -/etc/nsswitch.conf
0 14 open:entry ls -/lib/nss_compat.so.0
0 14 open:entry ls -/usr/lib/nss_compat.so.0
0 14 open:entry ls -/lib/nss_nis.so.0
0 14 open:entry ls -/usr/lib/nss_nis.so.0
0 14 open:entry ls -/lib/nss_files.so.0
0 14 open:entry ls -/usr/lib/nss_files.so.0
0 14 open:entry ls -/lib/nss_dns.so.0
0 14 open:entry ls -/usr/lib/nss_dns.so.0
0 14 open:entry ls -/etc/pwd.db
0 14 open:entry ls -/etc/group
0 14 open:entry ls -/etc/localtime
0 14 open:entry ls -/usr/share/zoneinfo/posixrules
kamloops# file /etc/pwd.db
/etc/pwd.db: Berkeley DB 1.85 (Hash, version 2, native byte-order)
Now, I see that /etc/group -is- a plain file. This could get the same treatment as /etc/passwd if it becomes a burden. In the meantime, if it's a performance bottleneck, make a memoizing function to lookup groups and use a '-n' switch to ls. Article is probably mostly important as the author thinking deeply about Unix, and part of the developmental process of the user....All the bluster (some of which is interesting), then at the end walks it back:
> So, I do not want to say that UNIX – is a bad system. I’m just drawing your attention to the fact that it has tons of drawbacks, just like other systems do. I also do not cancel the “UNIX philosophy”, just trying to say that it’s not an absolute.
Shame about the title... But maybe that's what landed it here on HN (?)
Edit: explain the "ls" command actually run.