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Sweden brings back military conscription

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Sweden brings back military conscription

#291

Post by Sharlin »

mrob wrote: post #147
zmb_ wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 200k dudes with guns Conscript military doesn't mean that you just teach everyone to dig a hole and sit in it with a rifle. You train conscripts into every role you need in a 200k strong modern military. Including operators and maintainers of the hi-tech death machines, sigint operatives, radar operators, tank crews, missile forces, officers of all kinds, and yes, the guys that dig holes and sit in them with rifles…

Conscription is slavery, and many conscripts will consider themselves to have a moral obligation to resist slavery. If you give them access to the whole military machine you greatly increase the opportunities for sabotage. With the traditional rifles in trenches style each individual conscript has very limited chance to fight back, and you can always call them traitors and murder them if they try.

That seems to be a very theoretical position with no evidence that it happens in the real world.

Re: Sweden brings back military conscription

#292

Post by [deleted] »

BurningFrog wrote: post #29
zmb_ wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>'if this isn't for you then you can go home' I did compulsory military service, including in a leadership role. "If you don't do what you're told, you don't get go home next weekend." Worked very well for conscripts, who usually get to go home for many weekends (unless on exercises). There are also many smaller privileges you can take a way for smaller infractions. Although when you have a defensive military that do…

A credible deterrent in 2020 is not 200k dudes with guns. It's air and naval power. Expensive and complex hi tech death machines. Of course, a 10m country will never have a really credible defense against nuclear super power Russia by itself.

[deleted]

Re: Sweden brings back military conscription

#293

Post by maus42 »

FullMtlAlcoholc wrote: post #283
elygre wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But here is the thing: conscripts is everybody, including the best of the best. Professional soldiers have a tendency to not come from ivy league schools, and are often recruited from the less well off parts of society (citation needed). You probably won't find Gates, Zuckerberg or Jobs in the US Army, but he quite possibly would have been in the Swedish one.

> You probably won't find Gates, Zuckerberg or Jobs in the US Army In a conflict like WW2, you would find individuals like that in the Armed forces.

Well, in WW2 US had a draft too...

Re: Sweden brings back military conscription

#294

Post by hindsightbias »

anticodon wrote: post #178
thedevil wrote: post #13

I'm not sure why Sweden would be concerned. I read Russian news/propaganda occasionally. Over the last few years, Russian news/propaganda prepared Russian minds for interfering in Ukraine. And the propaganda includes arguments to justify a military buildup. And it seems to be preparing Russian minds for a possible invasion of Baltic states one day. But I don't think I've even seen Sweden mentioned in Russian news/pro…

As Russian I don't agree. I don't watch TV and read news (other than HN and a couple of other sites where I try to avoid politics as much as I can), but why the hell do we need these Baltic states? What do they have that Russia needs? Territory, natural resources? Nothing. I don't know the real motivation for annexing Crimea, but making a conclusion: first they take Crimea, then they're going to take Sweden and Balti…

Right now, the EU/NATO are wondering if they're on their own or not. They might have 8 years of a US President who just doesn't care or will blame them.

Putin would be crazy not to take advantage of an opportunity to chip away at NATO and destabilize the EU edges. What else is he going to do, be a good boy and wait for them to drop sanctions?

Re: Sweden brings back military conscription

#295

Post by vidarh »

Sharlin wrote: post #291
mrob wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Conscription is slavery, and many conscripts will consider themselves to have a moral obligation to resist slavery. If you give them access to the whole military machine you greatly increase the opportunities for sabotage. With the traditional rifles in trenches style each individual conscript has very limited chance to fight back, and you can always call them traitors and murder them if they try.

That seems to be a very theoretical position with no evidence that it happens in the real world.

That may be so. What does happen on the other hand is that many countries throw people in prison for refusing to serve. This is the case in Norway, for example. And if you do show up and get processed, once you are part of the military you risk being put in military prison if you the subsequently refuse to serve. This is what happens during peace time.

Re: Sweden brings back military conscription

#296

Post by Sharlin »

derefr wrote: post #191
koolba wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What do you do with a conscript who never wanted to be there and possibly fundamentally isn't suited to military life anyway gives up? Threaten them with legal action? Military jail. > What do you do if they sort of do what they're told, but not really putting any effort into it? Crap assignments (ex: peel these 1000 potatoes then go clean that latrine) or military jail. Both are surprisingly motivating.

What if a group of conscripts decide that they'd rather "save themselves" by blowing themselves up, along with $100mm of your materiel? And then this becomes a meme—something other conscripts hear about and copy? I could see that happening if conscription ever returned in the US—we have an awful lot of "violent pacifists" (picture what happens if you draft some of the police-brutality protestors.)

As a citizen of a country with a conscription-based military, and having served myself, that "what if" question is better aimed at https://what-if.xkcd.com/.

Re: Sweden brings back military conscription

#297

Post by coldtea »

mrob wrote: post #147
zmb_ wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 200k dudes with guns Conscript military doesn't mean that you just teach everyone to dig a hole and sit in it with a rifle. You train conscripts into every role you need in a 200k strong modern military. Including operators and maintainers of the hi-tech death machines, sigint operatives, radar operators, tank crews, missile forces, officers of all kinds, and yes, the guys that dig holes and sit in them with rifles…

Conscription is slavery, and many conscripts will consider themselves to have a moral obligation to resist slavery. If you give them access to the whole military machine you greatly increase the opportunities for sabotage. With the traditional rifles in trenches style each individual conscript has very limited chance to fight back, and you can always call them traitors and murder them if they try.

>Conscription is slavery, and many conscripts will consider themselves to have a moral obligation to resist slavery.

On the contrary, conscription, and armies consisting of the population of a country in general (as opposed to mercenary armies) are a democratic achievement of (among a few other factors) the French Revolution.

In the actual times of slavery, e.g. in Ancient Greece and Rome it was free men that first and foremost did the fighting (and who considered it their honor and what made them and kept them free), and in the dark medieval times of peasants, feudal lords used mercenary armies (including against their subjects).

Conscription appeared on the scene as a way to have the army be controlled more by the population -- as opposed to it being professional soldiers ready to be used against the people.

Re: Sweden brings back military conscription

#298

Post by mrob »

FullMtlAlcoholc wrote: post #285
mrob wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Conscription is slavery, and many conscripts will consider themselves to have a moral obligation to resist slavery. If you give them access to the whole military machine you greatly increase the opportunities for sabotage. With the traditional rifles in trenches style each individual conscript has very limited chance to fight back, and you can always call them traitors and murder them if they try.

> Conscription is slavery I abhor hyperbole. Slavery is the legal ownership of one person over another person and their progeny. Since they are property, slaves have absolutely no rights or any access to the legal system. You commanding officer cannot rape or kill you with impunity. He/She cannot force you to do fight with another conscript to the death. Conscripts also get paid, while slaves do not and are well fed…

There are multiple degrees of slavery. Eg. The Roman emperor Antoninus Pius forbade the killing of slaves without good reason, but they were still slaves. Slave does not have to mean literally zero rights.

Re: Sweden brings back military conscription

#299

Post by coldtea »

vidarh wrote: post #295
Sharlin wrote: post #291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That seems to be a very theoretical position with no evidence that it happens in the real world.

That may be so. What does happen on the other hand is that many countries throw people in prison for refusing to serve. This is the case in Norway, for example. And if you do show up and get processed, once you are part of the military you risk being put in military prison if you the subsequently refuse to serve. This is what happens during peace time.

>That may be so. What does happen on the other hand is that many countries throw people in prison for refusing to serve.

And rightly so.

The only reason the country exists in the first place, is that people were willing to fight to establish it, and to serve and fight to defend it.

Else it would be not some magical global brothership of unicorns and love, but what was there before modern countries: empires and feudal overlords.

Re: Sweden brings back military conscription

#300

Post by executesorder66 »

ValentineC wrote: post #270
executesorder66 wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> seem to have any ethical problem with conscription. Here's my personal perspective: I was born in 1991, in South Africa. South Africa was involved in the South Africa Border War[0] from 1966 to 1989. Because of this war, we had conscription up until around 1994. So I have no obligation to join our military, nor do I want to. (It has become really shitty since after the war). I look at my father and his generation.…

> Nevertheless I would have loved to be conscripted into the army. A 2 year (paid) break from studies and/or work. A time to get super fit, learn new skills, make new friends. And the best part of it, is that no one can give you shit for it because it's expected of everyone. I am a former conscript. We were paid approximately $350 USD a month and rarely had time for personal improvement. The way I see it: many of us…

I don't remember the exact figures, but my uncle said he wished he did an extra year in the army, because the money was pretty good. (to be fair, he also really didn't feel like going to university)

Why were you conscripted and not your peers?

> rarely had time for personal improvement.

I guess it depends on which army you are in, and at what point in history.

My dad joined the Signal Units (He got a degree in Electrical Engineer before doing service) and he got a ton of practical experience which helped him in his career after the army.

Everyone I talked to that was conscripted into the SADF didn't regret it.

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