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Sweden brings back military conscription

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Sweden brings back military conscription

#161

Post by qaq »

zilean wrote: post #150
qaq wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Or North Kazakhstan" :) you don't watch Russian news much do you?

I dont watch news much. But that doesn't stops me from getting Ukraine from all sorts of angles for a long time (you have to justify Crimea). I dont get much about NK from anyone but some ultra-right aligned personalities (but i am also getting stuff about Alaska from them, so there is that).

There is no independent ultra-right it's just another face of the same ruling group. The things they declare are coordinated by Kremlin. The "crazy" talk about Ukraine that started even prior to 2004 by "ultra-right" leaders was just 1st phase of prep. I would strongly caution against dismissing their msg. because they are voiced by ultra-right.

Re: Sweden brings back military conscription

#162

Post by Tomte »

pilsetnieks wrote: post #145
zmb_ wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 200k dudes with guns Conscript military doesn't mean that you just teach everyone to dig a hole and sit in it with a rifle. You train conscripts into every role you need in a 200k strong modern military. Including operators and maintainers of the hi-tech death machines, sigint operatives, radar operators, tank crews, missile forces, officers of all kinds, and yes, the guys that dig holes and sit in them with rifles…

You literally cannot use conscripts for anything of "operators and maintainers of the hi-tech death machines, sigint operatives, radar operators, tank crews, missile forces, officers." First of all, most of them take at least a year to get up to speed, if not more, and they have to maintain their competence. You cannot just release a conscript after his year long stint, and call him up ten years later - the ten year…

I was a conscript, and while calling me a "SIGINT operative" would be too much, I worked in a SIGINT role, with security clearance and all that.

There are always things you can use rather unqualified (but generally intelligent) people for.

I don't remember much, but I'm pretty sure I could fill that role again after a day of re-training.

Re: Sweden brings back military conscription

#163

Post by TeMPOraL »

BurningFrog wrote: post #158
mikeash wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But not easily held. Both nations would probably think twice before trying it again.

True. But the cost to Afghanistan has been enormous. Four decades of constant war, millions dead, and near the lowest lifespan and living standard in the world. Is that really the defense strategy a country should aim for ? Will a modern latte sipping atheist nation really execute it? Also, there are many other reasons to invade countries than to hold them long term.

It does present a deterrent for the enemy who would like to invade and hold your territory. So it addresses that kind of attack. It does not address other kinds.

In a war, your losses don't usually concern your enemy. But they do care about how much it costs them to achieve their goals, so if you can make it prohibitively expensive, you have a sound defense.

Re: Sweden brings back military conscription

#164

Post by aphextron »

BurningFrog wrote: post #29
zmb_ wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>'if this isn't for you then you can go home' I did compulsory military service, including in a leadership role. "If you don't do what you're told, you don't get go home next weekend." Worked very well for conscripts, who usually get to go home for many weekends (unless on exercises). There are also many smaller privileges you can take a way for smaller infractions. Although when you have a defensive military that do…

A credible deterrent in 2020 is not 200k dudes with guns. It's air and naval power. Expensive and complex hi tech death machines. Of course, a 10m country will never have a really credible defense against nuclear super power Russia by itself.

>A credible deterrent in 2020 is not 200k dudes with guns.

Modern weapons are of course necessary, but in the end wars are fought and won by soldiers on the ground with rifles in their hands. Modern combined arms operations require the effective coordination of all aspects; air, sea, and land.

Re: Sweden brings back military conscription

#165

Post by Nokinside »

literallycancer wrote: post #156
Nokinside wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ethical problem with conscription None whatsoever. Individual rights has real meaning only when others protect them. Individual rights are never free. You can have freedom of speech, movement, assembly and property rights only when the group you live in agrees that you have those things and protects them when you can't. When the existence of that groups existence or freedom to organize is threatened, it's time to p…

>When there is a war, you conscript everything, people and profits. Wouldn't you have issues with the most capable people just leaving?

I don't think you realize how everything changes when nation is mobilized and war powers step in. People can't just step in a plane and leave the country, or move large amounts of money.

Re: Sweden brings back military conscription

#166

Post by jampekka »

tyingq wrote: post #51
chrisseaton wrote: post #6

How do you motivate a conscript? When I was in the British Army, which is volunteer only, commanding a basic training troop if someone was wanted to give up we could say to them 'if this isn't for you then you can go home' (of course we did coach and mentor people to help them, I mean in cases where people just give up and stop soldiering when an exercise gets tough). They usually worked extremely hard to get into th…

In the US military, peer pressure was the traditional motivator when the draft was being used. Your peers are aware they have to pick up the slack if you're not pulling your weight. Typically, all the leaders needed to do was to point this out.

At least in the Finnish conscript military this is the primary method. And not only do the peers have to pick up the slack, there are collective punishments, which have the designed tendency to turn the peers against the "unmotivated" people. Although this has its limits, as most people are very unmotivated, mostly because the whole service is dehumanizing and boring shit.

Re: Sweden brings back military conscription

#167

Post by avn2109 »

literallycancer wrote: post #141
avn2109 wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> "What do you do if they sort of do what they're told, but not really putting any effort into it?" You transfer them to some variant of a penal battalion. Simon Murray has a good description of this (from the French Foreign Legion) in [0]. During his stint in the Legion, the generic punishment was having to run around carrying heavy rocks in a backpack that has wire straps, coupled with sleep deprivation. It sounds…

You mean it sounds like torture?

Keep in mind that normal life in the Legion involves running around carrying heavy backpacks (with normal straps) and being slightly less sleep deprived.

Re: Sweden brings back military conscription

#168

Post by BurningFrog »

icebraining wrote: post #42
colechristensen wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Certainly not all, but some people with criminal tendencies could and do benefit from the structure and support of serving in the military. How much crime do you think is caused by people who didn't grow up learning discipline and responsibility and can't keep food on the table or a steady job? You don't have to kick the shit out of most of those people to turn them into an effective soldier.

Yeap, if they're going to shoot other people, might as well make it official. Yes, I'm being facetious, but if we're going to have reeducation camps paid by public money, I'd rather have them learn more useful things than how to handle military equipment.

There is a ton of real world experience that "troubled" kids often become reliable citizens by a few years in the military.

What they learn is working in a team, taking responsibility and being accountable.

Re: Sweden brings back military conscription

#169

Post by BurningFrog »

johan_larson wrote: post #101
raverbashing wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They get the motivated people first They're aiming for a low number, so it should be easy to achieve Of course, there might be some punishment as well if a person fails to perform to the expected level of duty

Yeah, 4,000 out of a cohort of 13,000 means you can be very selective. Easy enough to get rid of the real fuckups and the hell-no-way refuseniks. Give the rest some real choice in what they'll be trained for, and you might only have to say no to those with a clear mismatch between their hopes and what they are fit for. It's interesting that they are choosing to draft both men and women. Not a lot of places draft wome…

That's out of ~100,000 kids per year.

Re: Sweden brings back military conscription

#170

Post by vinceguidry »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #159
pilsetnieks wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You literally cannot use conscripts for anything of "operators and maintainers of the hi-tech death machines, sigint operatives, radar operators, tank crews, missile forces, officers." First of all, most of them take at least a year to get up to speed, if not more, and they have to maintain their competence. You cannot just release a conscript after his year long stint, and call him up ten years later - the ten year…

I think it's not that bad. When you've had a conscript military for decades, the service is a fact of life. Just like school and taxes. People get over it. Also my impression is that a lot of military equipment isn't very high-tech precisely so that it doesn't require that much expertise to operate and service in the field. So you need only a limited amount of specialists, and conscripts can just become trained users…

I think a lot of people equate the march of technology with complexity, but this isn't even typically the case. Advances in tech often make less complicated weapons more workable. Think steel production techniques enabling better armor. Armor's not getting more complicated, just better.

The M1A1 Abrams tank is extremely simple to operate and man. Regardless, it's quite formidable.

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