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Sweden brings back military conscription

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Sweden brings back military conscription

#91

How do you motivate a conscript? When I was in the British Army, which is volunteer only, commanding a basic training troop if someone was wanted to give up we could say to them 'if this isn't for you then you can go home' (of course we did coach and mentor people to help them, I mean in cases where people just give up and stop soldiering when an exercise gets tough). They usually worked extremely hard to get into th…

How do you motivate a non-existent volunteer? If not enough people are volunteering for the military, how else are you supposed to defend your country? It's not as good a situation as if you had an all-volunteer army, but that doesn't seem to be an option for Sweden.

If not enough people are joining and you conscript people to fight for you, you don't have a country, you have slaveowners.

Re: Sweden brings back military conscription

#92
post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

War is not something that can be controlled once it breaks out. Non-aligned militaries that come into close proximity is something that's very dangerous. At the very least an incident between militaries can cause a diplomatic crisis or at worst start a minor war. The very presence of military forces in the Baltic is a deterrent for that reason. Also Russia has continually violated Swedens air space. Russian pilots ha…

https://www.rt.com/news/346287-sweden-russian-submarine-hunt... Russia has nothing to gain in baltic that it doesnt have with Kaliningrad. Same goes for Ukraine w/o Crimea.

Russia's whole propaganda machine is predicated on having Ukraine as integral part of Russia since they base their whole value system on promoting the view that Russia is continuation of Kievan Rus which is modern day Ukraine.

Re: Sweden brings back military conscription

#93

I'm not sure why Sweden would be concerned. I read Russian news/propaganda occasionally. Over the last few years, Russian news/propaganda prepared Russian minds for interfering in Ukraine. And the propaganda includes arguments to justify a military buildup. And it seems to be preparing Russian minds for a possible invasion of Baltic states one day. But I don't think I've even seen Sweden mentioned in Russian news/pro…

You are misinformed because you are reading propaganda. They won't be relaying their plans of that channel.

Here are some recent events:

russian planes flying into Swedish air space

russian sub in water near Stockholm

Norway beefing up their border troops

etc.

Re: Sweden brings back military conscription

#94

How do you motivate a conscript? When I was in the British Army, which is volunteer only, commanding a basic training troop if someone was wanted to give up we could say to them 'if this isn't for you then you can go home' (of course we did coach and mentor people to help them, I mean in cases where people just give up and stop soldiering when an exercise gets tough). They usually worked extremely hard to get into th…

You really should know the answer to your question. The point of conscription under the subject circumstances is not to make them a wonderful and driven soldier, it's in order to establish and elevate a base line capacity for soldiering and fighting.

The idea is not the same as a volunteer force where you are professionally training someone into a member of the military, you are simply trying to establish a baseline in case a draft for defensive self-preservation is necessary one day. You sure as hell don't want to be caught off guard with a weak, limp wristed, Liberal, blue haired, self-loathing populace that has not even the most basic comprehension for what provides them the privileged and comfortable life they freeload off.

Conscription is simply a way to bolster a country's means for self-defense in circumstances of elevated risk, without having to actually create an adequate professional force. Conscription is absolutely productive in the face of what is perceived as escalating military risks.

You are right though, many, if not most European, even eastern European societies, are so atrophied and have become so weak willed and limp wristed for a number of reasons including the fact that they have so long totally and utterly relied on the USA providing a defensive shield that they have totally forgotten and become delusional and rather psychotic even, about the need for self-defense and even just as normally instinctual of things as self-preservation. Just look to what Europe is doing (It is sad to have to point this out, but extremely important to differentiate between, e.g., arabs and muslims ... people of a region and an ideology, just like there is/was a difference between Germans and Nazis.) by letting the ideology of islam invade their lands and infiltrate their societies and corrupt their governments to institute their ideology. And that's beyond the whole question of the number of people that the elite is thrusting upon its populace against every single basic and fundamental concept and notion of democracy and self-determination and liberty.

Conflict and war is coming. It is in the air, even if it does not happen now or the next year. There are certain forces that are relentlessly pushing towards conflict and strife and friction through "diversity", which will, unavoidably and inevitably lead to some sort of detrimental condition. And it is not the ones one would think, it is the equivalent of spoiled brats with no grasp on reality from having lived in a bubble of comfort and who take everything they are given without having earned it for granted that are ever creating the conditions that will result in failure or collapse of the system. Just like the rise of the Nazis in the 1920s was just the symptom and their gaining power the cancer that ultimately led to organ failure; the misaligned and rotten elite of effete impudent snobs are the cause of the conditions that lead to the cancer that caused the symptoms.

Re: Sweden brings back military conscription

#95

How do you motivate a conscript? When I was in the British Army, which is volunteer only, commanding a basic training troop if someone was wanted to give up we could say to them 'if this isn't for you then you can go home' (of course we did coach and mentor people to help them, I mean in cases where people just give up and stop soldiering when an exercise gets tough). They usually worked extremely hard to get into th…

This is a topic I've often contemplated.

On deployment (US Army) I couldn't help but notice how counter-productive all the "amenities" actually were. I believe one of the driving factors behind individual military success in theater (aka war), in addition to protecting your peers and pride, is that urge to finish the fight so you can get home. Having Burger King and Subway stifles that sense of urgency, IMO.

During war, you're motivated to do tasks 7,8, and 9 because they directly contribute to the success of task 1 - ending the war, and once the war is over, the war you've been conscripted into, you probably get to go home.

So, yes, I believe conscription without an active conflict makes it difficult to motivate individual soldiers.

Re: Sweden brings back military conscription

#96

I am quite surprised by the number of people here (and even larger numbers elsewhere this is being discussed) who don't seem to have any ethical problem with conscription. Thought the idea of killer slaves was completely off limits in the West. Now all of a sudden we are debating cost effectiveness. Guess I thought wrong.

Conscription is straight up slavery. I don't see any way around that. The arguments seem to be, "you'll only be a slave for a while, if you live", "we need slaves", "you'll get paid to do the work you're forced to do".

If you want an army, be worth defending -- both in terms of paying the soldier and being a country that a soldier would want to work for.

Re: Sweden brings back military conscription

#97
post #79
post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Russia Today? It would be nice for Russia to have a swath from Crimea to Dontesk up through Latvia, just look at a map.

Whats wrong with RT in general (besides funding) and this article in particular? > It would be nice for Russia to have a swath from Crimea to Dontesk up through Latvia, just look at a map. Why take this land? It does nothing strategically, has population that you need to subsidise, etc. Crimea allows Black Sea control. Kaliningrad effectively makes Baltic inner sea for Russia and if there ever would be any baltic act…

Latvia has a population you need to subsidize? What do you mean by that?

Re: Sweden brings back military conscription

#98
post #27
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>'if this isn't for you then you can go home' I did compulsory military service, including in a leadership role. "If you don't do what you're told, you don't get go home next weekend." Worked very well for conscripts, who usually get to go home for many weekends (unless on exercises). There are also many smaller privileges you can take a way for smaller infractions. Although when you have a defensive military that do…

>Now imagine you're a country with less than 10% of the population and need to produce a force of 200k soldiers in order to have a credible deterrent against an aggressive neighbor. How do you do that without conscription? Well... you PAY THEM (enough)? You make the workplace worthwhile and attractive, like you have to for every job ever? How do you get enough nurses? Policemen? Engineers? You conscript them all? Thi…

It doesn't really work. Everyone getting into the army knows that they're potentially risking their life. Something which doesn't really happen in most modern jobs.

You'd have to pay a ton of money to get middle class citizens into the army and at that point you'd probably spend half of your budget on the military.

I don't see this as something really authoritarian if your country does have a very aggressive neighbor.

Re: Sweden brings back military conscription

#99

I am quite surprised by the number of people here (and even larger numbers elsewhere this is being discussed) who don't seem to have any ethical problem with conscription. Thought the idea of killer slaves was completely off limits in the West. Now all of a sudden we are debating cost effectiveness. Guess I thought wrong.

"killer slaves" is a bit dramatic.

Re: Sweden brings back military conscription

#100

How do you motivate a conscript? When I was in the British Army, which is volunteer only, commanding a basic training troop if someone was wanted to give up we could say to them 'if this isn't for you then you can go home' (of course we did coach and mentor people to help them, I mean in cases where people just give up and stop soldiering when an exercise gets tough). They usually worked extremely hard to get into th…

Netflix has a funny movie out of Israel that deals with this subject, some conscripts that have absolutely no desire to be in the military. It's called "Zero Motivation":

https://www.netflix.com/title/80000347

It very much pokes fun at a system where everyone needs to serve in the military.

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