Sweden brings back military conscription • Hacker News Board

Re: Sweden brings back military conscription

#21

Post by colechristensen » Thu, Mar 02, 2017, 3:54 PM UTC

secfirstmd wrote: post #11

chrisseaton wrote: post #6

How do you motivate a conscript? When I was in the British Army, which is volunteer only, commanding a basic training troop if someone was wanted to give up we could say to them 'if this isn't for you then you can go home' (of course we did coach and mentor people to help them, I mean in cases where people just give up and stop soldiering when an exercise gets tough). They usually worked extremely hard to get into th…

I couldn't agree more. I've trained regular volunteer soldiers and even then it's hard to motivate some of them from time to time, I can't imagine how hard it would be with conscripts...This also annoys me when idiot right-wing politicians vomit out the idea that criminal youth etc should be pushed into the army. It's both an insult to volunteers and professional pride/cohesion and impossible. This is not the 1930s,…

Certainly not all, but some people with criminal tendencies could and do benefit from the structure and support of serving in the military. How much crime do you think is caused by people who didn't grow up learning discipline and responsibility and can't keep food on the table or a steady job? You don't have to kick the shit out of most of those people to turn them into an effective soldier.

Re: Sweden brings back military conscription

#22

Post by hackermailman » Thu, Mar 02, 2017, 3:55 PM UTC

chrisseaton wrote: post #6

How do you motivate a conscript? When I was in the British Army, which is volunteer only, commanding a basic training troop if someone was wanted to give up we could say to them 'if this isn't for you then you can go home' (of course we did coach and mentor people to help them, I mean in cases where people just give up and stop soldiering when an exercise gets tough). They usually worked extremely hard to get into th…

South Korea you do 3yrs mandatory service or 2yrs jail and life long shame so motivation isn't a problem. After basic it often involves just working at a desk somewhere only a few stay as professional soldiers rest are moved into cheap civil service labor.

I suspect Sweden has brought back conscription to try and integrate it's new massive foreigner population as a way to make them more Swedish not because of any shenanigans in Kosovo. ...edit oops variable scope error, threat:= Russian shenanigans

Re: Sweden brings back military conscription

#23

Post by jackcosgrove » Thu, Mar 02, 2017, 3:56 PM UTC

chrisseaton wrote: post #6

How do you motivate a conscript? When I was in the British Army, which is volunteer only, commanding a basic training troop if someone was wanted to give up we could say to them 'if this isn't for you then you can go home' (of course we did coach and mentor people to help them, I mean in cases where people just give up and stop soldiering when an exercise gets tough). They usually worked extremely hard to get into th…

How do you motivate a non-existent volunteer?

If not enough people are volunteering for the military, how else are you supposed to defend your country? It's not as good a situation as if you had an all-volunteer army, but that doesn't seem to be an option for Sweden.

Re: Sweden brings back military conscription

#24

Post by nkrisc » Thu, Mar 02, 2017, 3:56 PM UTC

thedevil wrote: post #13

I'm not sure why Sweden would be concerned. I read Russian news/propaganda occasionally. Over the last few years, Russian news/propaganda prepared Russian minds for interfering in Ukraine. And the propaganda includes arguments to justify a military buildup. And it seems to be preparing Russian minds for a possible invasion of Baltic states one day. But I don't think I've even seen Sweden mentioned in Russian news/pro…

I wouldn't cite propaganda to support that conclusion, precisely because it's propaganda.

Re: Sweden brings back military conscription

#25

Post by ckastner » Thu, Mar 02, 2017, 3:57 PM UTC

zmb_ wrote: post #18

chrisseaton wrote: post #6

How do you motivate a conscript? When I was in the British Army, which is volunteer only, commanding a basic training troop if someone was wanted to give up we could say to them 'if this isn't for you then you can go home' (of course we did coach and mentor people to help them, I mean in cases where people just give up and stop soldiering when an exercise gets tough). They usually worked extremely hard to get into th…

>'if this isn't for you then you can go home' I did compulsory military service, including in a leadership role. "If you don't do what you're told, you don't get go home next weekend." Worked very well for conscripts, who usually get to go home for many weekends (unless on exercises). There are also many smaller privileges you can take a way for smaller infractions. Although when you have a defensive military that do…

> I did compulsory military service, including in a leadership role. "If you don't do what you're told, you don't get go home next weekend." Worked very well for conscripts, who usually get to go home for many weekends (unless on exercises).

As a former conscript, this was definitely the ultimate motivator.

Conscript service was so incredibly dull that one would do almost anything just to get off-base over the weekend.

Re: Sweden brings back military conscription

#26

Post by JumpCrisscross » Thu, Mar 02, 2017, 3:57 PM UTC

thedevil wrote: post #13

I'm not sure why Sweden would be concerned. I read Russian news/propaganda occasionally. Over the last few years, Russian news/propaganda prepared Russian minds for interfering in Ukraine. And the propaganda includes arguments to justify a military buildup. And it seems to be preparing Russian minds for a possible invasion of Baltic states one day. But I don't think I've even seen Sweden mentioned in Russian news/pro…

> I don't think Sweden is a target

As Andy Grove said, "only the paranoid survive" [1]. Good strategy means being prepared for the worst case. As a plus, being prepared for a worst-case scenario goes a healthy way towards deterring it.

Keep in mind that Sweden is neither a NATO member [2] nor a nuclear power [3]. If Russia needed to make a strongman pitch at home or sow confusion abroad, it would be easier (and more meaningful) to cause trouble in Sweden or Finland than virtually anywhere else. Hence the perennial submarine drama [4].

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Grove

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enlargement_of_NATO#Sweden

[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_nuclear_weapons_progra...

[4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_submarine_incidents

Re: Sweden brings back military conscription

#27

Post by Kenji » Thu, Mar 02, 2017, 3:58 PM UTC

zmb_ wrote: post #18

chrisseaton wrote: post #6

How do you motivate a conscript? When I was in the British Army, which is volunteer only, commanding a basic training troop if someone was wanted to give up we could say to them 'if this isn't for you then you can go home' (of course we did coach and mentor people to help them, I mean in cases where people just give up and stop soldiering when an exercise gets tough). They usually worked extremely hard to get into th…

>'if this isn't for you then you can go home' I did compulsory military service, including in a leadership role. "If you don't do what you're told, you don't get go home next weekend." Worked very well for conscripts, who usually get to go home for many weekends (unless on exercises). There are also many smaller privileges you can take a way for smaller infractions. Although when you have a defensive military that do…

>Now imagine you're a country with less than 10% of the population and need to produce a force of 200k soldiers in order to have a credible deterrent against an aggressive neighbor. How do you do that without conscription?

Well... you PAY THEM (enough)? You make the workplace worthwhile and attractive, like you have to for every job ever? How do you get enough nurses? Policemen? Engineers? You conscript them all? This is a deeply authoritarian mindset and it concerns me. Conscription hurts troop morale. Let people serve in the military when they want to serve.

Re: Sweden brings back military conscription

#28

Post by mzs » Thu, Mar 02, 2017, 4:00 PM UTC

thedevil wrote: post #13

I'm not sure why Sweden would be concerned. I read Russian news/propaganda occasionally. Over the last few years, Russian news/propaganda prepared Russian minds for interfering in Ukraine. And the propaganda includes arguments to justify a military buildup. And it seems to be preparing Russian minds for a possible invasion of Baltic states one day. But I don't think I've even seen Sweden mentioned in Russian news/pro…

Cause Norway is?

https://thebarentsobserver.com/en/2017/03/norway-moves-milit...

Re: Sweden brings back military conscription

#29

Post by BurningFrog » Thu, Mar 02, 2017, 4:02 PM UTC

zmb_ wrote: post #18

chrisseaton wrote: post #6

How do you motivate a conscript? When I was in the British Army, which is volunteer only, commanding a basic training troop if someone was wanted to give up we could say to them 'if this isn't for you then you can go home' (of course we did coach and mentor people to help them, I mean in cases where people just give up and stop soldiering when an exercise gets tough). They usually worked extremely hard to get into th…

>'if this isn't for you then you can go home' I did compulsory military service, including in a leadership role. "If you don't do what you're told, you don't get go home next weekend." Worked very well for conscripts, who usually get to go home for many weekends (unless on exercises). There are also many smaller privileges you can take a way for smaller infractions. Although when you have a defensive military that do…

A credible deterrent in 2020 is not 200k dudes with guns. It's air and naval power. Expensive and complex hi tech death machines.

Of course, a 10m country will never have a really credible defense against nuclear super power Russia by itself.

Re: Sweden brings back military conscription

#30

Post by 67726e » Thu, Mar 02, 2017, 4:03 PM UTC

colechristensen wrote: post #21

secfirstmd wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I couldn't agree more. I've trained regular volunteer soldiers and even then it's hard to motivate some of them from time to time, I can't imagine how hard it would be with conscripts...This also annoys me when idiot right-wing politicians vomit out the idea that criminal youth etc should be pushed into the army. It's both an insult to volunteers and professional pride/cohesion and impossible. This is not the 1930s,…

Certainly not all, but some people with criminal tendencies could and do benefit from the structure and support of serving in the military. How much crime do you think is caused by people who didn't grow up learning discipline and responsibility and can't keep food on the table or a steady job? You don't have to kick the shit out of most of those people to turn them into an effective soldier.

Anecdotally, it worked for my uncle. The judge gave him the option to join the Marines or go to prison. He chose the former and he ended up becoming a productive member of society.