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Sweden brings back military conscription

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Sweden brings back military conscription

#11

Post by secfirstmd »

chrisseaton wrote: post #6

How do you motivate a conscript? When I was in the British Army, which is volunteer only, commanding a basic training troop if someone was wanted to give up we could say to them 'if this isn't for you then you can go home' (of course we did coach and mentor people to help them, I mean in cases where people just give up and stop soldiering when an exercise gets tough). They usually worked extremely hard to get into th…

I couldn't agree more. I've trained regular volunteer soldiers and even then it's hard to motivate some of them from time to time, I can't imagine how hard it would be with conscripts...This also annoys me when idiot right-wing politicians vomit out the idea that criminal youth etc should be pushed into the army. It's both an insult to volunteers and professional pride/cohesion and impossible. This is not the 1930s, NCOs are quite rightfully not supposed to or should be going around kicking the shit out of people to "motivate" them.

The world and the military has moved on.

Re: Sweden brings back military conscription

#12

Post by kalleboo »

chrisseaton wrote: post #6

How do you motivate a conscript? When I was in the British Army, which is volunteer only, commanding a basic training troop if someone was wanted to give up we could say to them 'if this isn't for you then you can go home' (of course we did coach and mentor people to help them, I mean in cases where people just give up and stop soldiering when an exercise gets tough). They usually worked extremely hard to get into th…

Sweden had conscription until 2010, and there has been some political rhetoric about resuming it ever since then. So it's not the same thing as if, say, the US started a conscript today.

edit: and when I was conscripted in 2003, there was still a culture of "conscription is where boys become become a man". among my social group there was pretty widespread support for it (ranging from support to apathy to "it's just a waste of money". you could also be a conscientious objector and get civil service instead.)

edit2: random local news "asking youths on the street" article about the decision. ranging from positive to "i wouldn't agree to it" responses. https://www.sydsvenskan.se/2017-03-02/malmoungdomar-positiva...

Re: Sweden brings back military conscription

#13

Post by thedevil »

I'm not sure why Sweden would be concerned.

I read Russian news/propaganda occasionally. Over the last few years, Russian news/propaganda prepared Russian minds for interfering in Ukraine. And the propaganda includes arguments to justify a military buildup. And it seems to be preparing Russian minds for a possible invasion of Baltic states one day.

But I don't think I've even seen Sweden mentioned in Russian news/propaganda. I don't think Sweden is a target.

Re: Sweden brings back military conscription

#14

Post by nabla9 »

chrisseaton wrote: post #6

How do you motivate a conscript? When I was in the British Army, which is volunteer only, commanding a basic training troop if someone was wanted to give up we could say to them 'if this isn't for you then you can go home' (of course we did coach and mentor people to help them, I mean in cases where people just give up and stop soldiering when an exercise gets tough). They usually worked extremely hard to get into th…

Was there motivational problems among Brits in WWI and WWII? Maybe there is difference when you train to defend your own country versus going to some foreign country to fight abstract and vague threat or advance foreign policy goals.

At least here in Finland the motivation comes from clear and well defined threat. Enemy comes always from the east, if we don't fight we suffer other ways.

>What do you do with a conscript who never wanted to be there and possibly fundamentally isn't suited to military life anyway gives up?

Conscription does not mean that everyone serves. Everyone is called to be evaluated, some are not called to serve, some are sent home because they can't make it.

Re: Sweden brings back military conscription

#15

Post by jib »

chrisseaton wrote: post #6

How do you motivate a conscript? When I was in the British Army, which is volunteer only, commanding a basic training troop if someone was wanted to give up we could say to them 'if this isn't for you then you can go home' (of course we did coach and mentor people to help them, I mean in cases where people just give up and stop soldiering when an exercise gets tough). They usually worked extremely hard to get into th…

Swedish conscription (before it was cancelled) was very close to voluntary anyways.

When I did the tests for it, about 20 years ago, only about one in five or so were picked from the tests, and it was trivial to avoid being picked if you didn't want to do it.

You motivate people the same way you motivate anyone I guess - you're here, you can make the best of it and learn some useful skills, or you can be spending the next year miserable.

We're doing useful important things here, and you can play a role in that, while learning (medical care/mechanical work/computer skills/languages/leadership skills... whatever).

If you really dont want to be there, you have ways out (both civil service, and flunking tests badly, or in an extreme case, go to jail).

Re: Sweden brings back military conscription

#16

Post by Nullabillity »

mikeash wrote: post #9
chrisseaton wrote: post #6

How do you motivate a conscript? When I was in the British Army, which is volunteer only, commanding a basic training troop if someone was wanted to give up we could say to them 'if this isn't for you then you can go home' (of course we did coach and mentor people to help them, I mean in cases where people just give up and stop soldiering when an exercise gets tough). They usually worked extremely hard to get into th…

The article says, "The aim is to encourage them to become military professionals or to join the reserves." I'm not quite sure if that's reasonable, but it's a bit different from just forcing people to fight.

So... 9 month brainwashing camps? That doesn't exactly sound like a good idea either.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-35456535 :

> "I always had a dream to come back as an officer and to do it here on Gotland and establish a new unit, it's perfect," he tells me.

That's exactly the kind of people who have no business even being in charge of what they themselves eat for breakfast. This mess makes me ashamed of my country.

Re: Sweden brings back military conscription

#17

Post by macintux »

thedevil wrote: post #13

I'm not sure why Sweden would be concerned. I read Russian news/propaganda occasionally. Over the last few years, Russian news/propaganda prepared Russian minds for interfering in Ukraine. And the propaganda includes arguments to justify a military buildup. And it seems to be preparing Russian minds for a possible invasion of Baltic states one day. But I don't think I've even seen Sweden mentioned in Russian news/pro…

War has a way of spilling over borders.

Re: Sweden brings back military conscription

#18

Post by zmb_ »

chrisseaton wrote: post #6

How do you motivate a conscript? When I was in the British Army, which is volunteer only, commanding a basic training troop if someone was wanted to give up we could say to them 'if this isn't for you then you can go home' (of course we did coach and mentor people to help them, I mean in cases where people just give up and stop soldiering when an exercise gets tough). They usually worked extremely hard to get into th…

>'if this isn't for you then you can go home'

I did compulsory military service, including in a leadership role. "If you don't do what you're told, you don't get go home next weekend." Worked very well for conscripts, who usually get to go home for many weekends (unless on exercises). There are also many smaller privileges you can take a way for smaller infractions.

Although when you have a defensive military that does not go around the world fighting wars, and whose only objective is to retain the independence of your own country, most conscripts take it as their civic responsibility and don't cause problems.

Those who are fundamentally unsuited for military usually ended up getting discharged quickly. Most before ever stepping into service.

>Conscription seems counter-productive to me.

Britain has 150k active military personnel with 80k reserves. Now imagine you're a country with less than 10% of the population and need to produce a force of 200k soldiers in order to have a credible deterrent against an aggressive neighbor. How do you do that without conscription?

Re: Sweden brings back military conscription

#19

Post by maxerickson »

nabla9 wrote: post #14
chrisseaton wrote: post #6

How do you motivate a conscript? When I was in the British Army, which is volunteer only, commanding a basic training troop if someone was wanted to give up we could say to them 'if this isn't for you then you can go home' (of course we did coach and mentor people to help them, I mean in cases where people just give up and stop soldiering when an exercise gets tough). They usually worked extremely hard to get into th…

Was there motivational problems among Brits in WWI and WWII? Maybe there is difference when you train to defend your own country versus going to some foreign country to fight abstract and vague threat or advance foreign policy goals. At least here in Finland the motivation comes from clear and well defined threat. Enemy comes always from the east, if we don't fight we suffer other ways. >What do you do with a conscri…

In Band of Brothers (the HBO docudrama), the featured unit are paratroopers. They discuss volunteering for the more severe duty because they think they will then be around similarly motivated individuals.

Re: Sweden brings back military conscription

#20

Post by liotier »

chrisseaton wrote: post #6

How do you motivate a conscript? When I was in the British Army, which is volunteer only, commanding a basic training troop if someone was wanted to give up we could say to them 'if this isn't for you then you can go home' (of course we did coach and mentor people to help them, I mean in cases where people just give up and stop soldiering when an exercise gets tough). They usually worked extremely hard to get into th…

> How do you motivate a conscript ?

Same you motivate anyone anywhere, except that in the end you have institutionally-legitimated physical threats to back up your orders. Field-proven method since about 6000 years !

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