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Massive permafrost thaw documented in Canada, portending huge carbon release

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Re: Massive permafrost thaw documented in Canada, portending huge carbon release

#211

Post by dredmorbius »

scarmig wrote: post #136
riffic wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But homo sapiens will probably survive, and so civilization will probably eventually be rebuilt This is a very arrogant assumption. Our species is one component of a little-understood web of interconnected dependencies. Just because humans are slightly more clever than past dominant species doesn't make us any less extinction-proof.

Just because humans are slightly more clever than past dominant species doesn't make us any less extinction-proof. Homo sapiens: the Dunning-Kruger hominid.

I've suggested: the anti-ant.

Ants, individually, are stupid. Collectively, they're intelligent, and solve complex problems.

Humans, individually, are brilliant (by animal standards). Collectively, not so much.

Re: Massive permafrost thaw documented in Canada, portending huge carbon release

#212

Post by ZeroGravitas »

hueving wrote: post #191
mgbmtl wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a lot of people to move and things to rebuild. Op did say "the current round of civilization". I also agree that lots of things changing at once are likely to create instability, with negative economic and social impacts (unless governments massively intervene, which I suspect many in the US would not appreciate). I'm sure walls are an option, but they will be expensive to maintain and it doesn't take much to…

>That's a lot of people to move and things to rebuild. Op did say "the current round of civilization". If that's the bar for civilization ending, then civilization ended when people came to the US, ended again when they expanded out to the West, etc. Just because people on the US coasts move means little to the 60 percent of citizens that don't live near the ocean. And again, it's not going to happen overnight. A wal…

"If that's the bar for civilization ending, then civilization ended when people came to the US, ended again when they expanded out to the West, etc."

Interesting that your example is literally true both times for the people who where there earlier.

Re: Massive permafrost thaw documented in Canada, portending huge carbon release

#213

Post by giardini »

basurihn wrote: post #184
josho wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An excellent introductory book is Storms of My Grandchildren by James Hansen. It speaks to the science and directly addresses the common objections that deniers bring up. What surprised me is that the science comes at this from multiple angles, so even if someone were to dispute the computer models, then we have other lines of science that still back the theories, e.g. looking at the environment over geologic time sc…

James Hansen is the Doctor Oz of climate change. Dude will release study after study before they hit peer review. He's a god damn charlatan. https://theconversation.com/study-predicts-multi-meter-sea-l...

More like the Wizard of Oz of climate change - Hansen is an outright alarmist. I'm afraid my mad-hatter friend (whom I posted of earlier) has been reading Hansen's book with all critical faculties disabled.

Re: Massive permafrost thaw documented in Canada, portending huge carbon release

#214

Post by kerbalspacepro »

mikegioia wrote: post #66
TillE wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right. You can at least breathe in Antarctica. And terraforming Mars would be several orders of magnitude more expensive than even a massive readjustment of Earth's climate.

Expensive? By all measurements it's impossible.

Then why do engineers/scientists keep talking about how they'd do it.

Re: Massive permafrost thaw documented in Canada, portending huge carbon release

#215

Post by josho »

basurihn wrote: post #184
josho wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An excellent introductory book is Storms of My Grandchildren by James Hansen. It speaks to the science and directly addresses the common objections that deniers bring up. What surprised me is that the science comes at this from multiple angles, so even if someone were to dispute the computer models, then we have other lines of science that still back the theories, e.g. looking at the environment over geologic time sc…

James Hansen is the Doctor Oz of climate change. Dude will release study after study before they hit peer review. He's a god damn charlatan. https://theconversation.com/study-predicts-multi-meter-sea-l...

Be careful, as your sources are suspect and don't speak to his research.

Your mashable link is a summary of a piece from Glover Park Group, in their own words they turn 'strategies into outcomes', so they seem to be a firm that gets paid to shape public opinion. For that reason alone we should dismiss the messenger.

While your 'the conversation.com' link seems broken, but searching on their site for Hansen returns a first result that is critical of carbon tax programs, seemingly favoring emissions trading. Yet, emissions trading is largely seen as benefiting banks to give them a new financial instrument to trade while not actually reducing carbon emissions. So, I'm left somewhat skeptical about conclusions coming from that site as well.

What I'd rather see is a critique of Hansen's papers coming from the scientific community. I would give that an honest read and open consideration.

Re: Massive permafrost thaw documented in Canada, portending huge carbon release

#216

Post by drallison »

The permafrost thaw and associated carbon release is not new. For example, David Lawrence presented a model of its impact in the Stanford EE380 Colloquium on April 5, 2006, over a decade ago. The talk is no longer online, but his slides and abstract are available. http://ee380.stanford.edu/Abstracts/060405.html The phenomenon and its impact were not a new discovery even then.

Re: Massive permafrost thaw documented in Canada, portending huge carbon release

#217

Post by giardini »

cozzyd wrote: post #17

I wonder what will happen to the National Flood Insurance Program when Florida is underwater.

They send payment via USPS: "The check is in the mail."

Hey, hey! Why the downvote? I thought it was funny: your mailbox underwater, you swimming out to get the check....

[sigh]Oh, well, no fun here...

Re: Massive permafrost thaw documented in Canada, portending huge carbon release

#218

Post by dimitri-gnidash »

I understand how the personal responsibility plays into the climate change and already follow most of the best practices: biking to the office, driving electric (Ontario electricity), energy conservation at home, reducing consumption, but feel that I can do more.

Can someone suggest a few environmental charities that can be donated to?

Re: Massive permafrost thaw documented in Canada, portending huge carbon release

#219

Post by dleslie »

balabaster wrote: post #206
dleslie wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oxygen and nutrition; we can't even get self-sustaining bio domes working now, despite decades of attempts. We could solve the problem, sure, but it's a race against time while society is crumbling, in this scenario.

You'd be surprised what we could get to work if the survival of humanity depended upon it. You'd better believe we'd get self sustaining bio domes working tout de suite if that were the only way to ensure our survival.

It could be difficult to see the forest for the trees. In this model the sea level rising would flood many of the largest cities on earth, resources would certainly be focused on managing the onslaught of climate refugees that result.

OTOH, the Manhattan Project occurred during a time of near-total war; so there's hope.

Re: Massive permafrost thaw documented in Canada, portending huge carbon release

#220

Post by fictioncircle »

marknutter wrote: post #205
fictioncircle wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This would only allow them to win more elections and retain power for longer. Instead include them in discussions; try to socialize them. Don't talk down to them as they will move away from the discussion and purposefully remain ignorant and vote on such feelings of wrong and vengeance that emerges from ridiculing them. Have we learned nothing from Trump's victory? If so, get ready for two terms. The problem isn't…

Are you listening to yourself?

> I mean, literally, year old events that have dozens of news articles (including multiple right-wing sources) they choose to disbelieve over their chosen charismatic leader on YouTube and Right Wing Radio.

Please explain to me why people are denying Sandy Hook was a real event?

They also deny things like this happen:

https://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2015/11/the-3-a...

http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/760250/Texas-mosque-burn...

Despite the fact I can link them to articles.

Please explain to me how that isn't cult thinking and fundamental denial of reality?

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