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What fossil fuels are doing to our oceans

newhumanist.org.uk

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Re: What fossil fuels are doing to our oceans

#131

Post by TeMPOraL »

arvidj wrote: post #54
D_Alex wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is a terrible idea, for many reasons, and it would not reduce CO2 emissions... probably the opposite. A much better idea would be to reserve petroleum and natural gas for production of high value products such as plastics, instead of using it as an energy source now that renewable energy is competitive on cost.

Is that so? I recently bought some fake-plastic bags made out of plant matter (not fossilized mind you) in the hope that they would be more environmentally sustainable. As I remember it, googling did not turn up any conclusive evidence to the contrary. Why do you think banning plastics would be a bad idea?

Because:

- there are very many plastics with different properties, and - AFAIK - not all of them can be replaced with plant matter

- replacing all plastics with plants will likely compete with agriculture for land use

- if you just went and banned plastics, we'd have to use things like glass, metals and woods instead; not sure how the manufacturing footprint compares between metals and plastics, but just consider that if every plastic item you have around you was made from steel instead, how much heavier everything would be, and how it would impact energy requirements to move those things around

Plastics are pretty awesome materials.

Re: What fossil fuels are doing to our oceans

#132

Post by davidmanescu »

stinos wrote: post #63
danvdragos wrote: post #42

Reading this struck me: What is the difference between primordial volcanoes and human pollution? During the dinosaur age it was a lot hotter [0] and there were really extraordinary organisms. Further reading seems to go down a rabbit hole [1],etc. [0] http://blogs.ei.columbia.edu/2014/07/11/what-geology-has-to-... [1] https://www.theguardian.com/environment/blog/2010/apr/21/ice...

I always thought there's way more human pollution than the amounts casued by a couple of volcano activity here and there? A quick search turns up multiple responses like this one: Scientists have calculated that volcanoes emit between about 130-230 million tonnes (145-255 million tons) of CO2 into the atmosphere every year (Gerlach, 1999, 1991). This estimate includes both subaerial and submarine volcanoes, about in…

Ballpark numbers here; by similar reasoning, since the industrial revolution humans have put out no more than 26,000 years worth of all volcanoes' emissions (say 200 years worth of 130x emissions). Therefore (obviously hypothetically) if we were to cease emitting any CO2 at all, today, the effects of all the CO2 ever produced by humans would become largely irrelevant in just tens of millennia, which is a mere instant in geological timescales!

I think in the scheme of things, no matter how bad things get the planet won't even notice us. However the question remains what life will be left to see it when it does finally return to normal.

Re: What fossil fuels are doing to our oceans

#133

Post by bamboozled »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #123
bamboozled wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sadly, this attitude has been the problem for too long now, it might be our undoing. The common individual waits for some authoritative direction, without taking any immediate action or responsibility of their own. The individual somehow believes they won't have an impact, failing to realize they're part of the same system as everyone else and, it's the sum of all our behaviour that has got us to this crisis point. I…

I'm not saying don't make the individual-level changes. Do them, sure. But that - talking about personal responsibility - is exactly the "old way" that isn't working. I'm looking for impactful things that one can do beyond personal changes. > Don't forget the power of influence. It's monkey see, money do with us humans! Sure, marketing / propaganda / public outreach is a very good example of things I'm looking for! H…

This doesn't mean marketing, bragging or propaganda. It's about making an effort.

Take divesting your savings from banks that fund non-renewablecenergy projects, for example. Actually doing it is effort, it's something you can do, and it will have a positive impact on climate change, even if it's small, it's a start; However, here's the kicker, actually doing it is the key. You will see how others respond to this action, it's different to just making a suggestion. It's leadership.

Honestly, making changes on an individual level (sometimes this can mean some sacrifices) is probably a much stronger catalyst for change in others than you might think.

This quote from Ghandi is great, it's just not always easy, I hope you enjoy :)

Be the change that you wish to see in the world

Re: What fossil fuels are doing to our oceans

#134

Post by anotherturn »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #129
anotherturn wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is plenty in the world that needs fixing. But as is the case with startups - if you try work on everything nothing works. Focused* effort brings about the greatest likelihood of success. *I realize I'm being a bit hypocritical as I'm proposing working on fixing oceans (which will have plenty of added benefits wrt climate change etc.) as a side project to bring about change; in addition to my full time freelance…

I agree. But we could use a good summary of what are the most important problems, subdivided into areas that need work / improvement and some estimate of their impact potential, so that people who want to focus on a single thing can choose high-impact things.

I think the Global Priorities Project [1] has that covered - at least to first order.

"Definition: Global Catastrophic Risk – risk of events or processes that would lead to the deaths of approximately a tenth of the world’s population, or have a comparable impact."

[1]: http://globalprioritiesproject.org/

Re: What fossil fuels are doing to our oceans

#135

Post by agumonkey »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #129
anotherturn wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is plenty in the world that needs fixing. But as is the case with startups - if you try work on everything nothing works. Focused* effort brings about the greatest likelihood of success. *I realize I'm being a bit hypocritical as I'm proposing working on fixing oceans (which will have plenty of added benefits wrt climate change etc.) as a side project to bring about change; in addition to my full time freelance…

I agree. But we could use a good summary of what are the most important problems, subdivided into areas that need work / improvement and some estimate of their impact potential, so that people who want to focus on a single thing can choose high-impact things.

I'm slightly smiling. Aren't we reinventing politics ?

Re: What fossil fuels are doing to our oceans

#136

Post by TeMPOraL »

bamboozled wrote: post #133
TeMPOraL wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not saying don't make the individual-level changes. Do them, sure. But that - talking about personal responsibility - is exactly the "old way" that isn't working. I'm looking for impactful things that one can do beyond personal changes. > Don't forget the power of influence. It's monkey see, money do with us humans! Sure, marketing / propaganda / public outreach is a very good example of things I'm looking for! H…

This doesn't mean marketing, bragging or propaganda. It's about making an effort. Take divesting your savings from banks that fund non-renewablecenergy projects, for example. Actually doing it is effort, it's something you can do, and it will have a positive impact on climate change, even if it's small, it's a start; However, here's the kicker, actually doing it is the key. You will see how others respond to this act…

Thanks for reminding me of the quote :). Also, interesting example with banks; this has never occured to me.

I'm not denying that individual efforts and "leading by example" is worthless. It's powerful when in aggregate, and for that very reason it's worth doing.

My question is generally - after one does the individual-level changes, what else can one do that could help with the skills that one has?

Re: What fossil fuels are doing to our oceans

#137

Post by TeMPOraL »

agumonkey wrote: post #135
TeMPOraL wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree. But we could use a good summary of what are the most important problems, subdivided into areas that need work / improvement and some estimate of their impact potential, so that people who want to focus on a single thing can choose high-impact things.

I'm slightly smiling. Aren't we reinventing politics ?

Are we? I don't see the similarity yet.

What I had in mind was an information source for individual decision-making (what to work on to best tackle problem X, how things are going), whereas politics is more about deciding as a group what problems are worth solving and then ordering resources to be directed into them.

Re: What fossil fuels are doing to our oceans

#138

Post by agumonkey »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #137
agumonkey wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm slightly smiling. Aren't we reinventing politics ?

Are we? I don't see the similarity yet. What I had in mind was an information source for individual decision-making (what to work on to best tackle problem X, how things are going), whereas politics is more about deciding as a group what problems are worth solving and then ordering resources to be directed into them.

Maybe I used the wrong word, "government" ?

I mean, joining forces to fix or improve the place we live in is the root of ideal politics/government.

Re: What fossil fuels are doing to our oceans

#139

Post by mikegioia »

mavhc wrote: post #70
andrewwhartion wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quick 'back of the envelope' (literally) calculations: Toyota Camry [0] Dual VVT-i engine gets 7.9L/100km and 183gm/km emissions. That roughly works out as 2.3kg CO2 per 1L petrol. Therefore, a tonne of CO2 is produced for every ~430L petrol. Petrol is around AUD $1.40/L, so about AUD $600 of petrol. Carbon credits [1] are worth about $14 euros per tonne of CO2, which is say AUD $19. Therefore 'carbon neutral' petrol…

This is what confuses me, if it only costs 10% more to fix the problem, why the hell is it still a problem?

Exactly! It's maddening.

You can start paying off your CO2 right now. This is a side project of mine: https://earthboost.org

Re: What fossil fuels are doing to our oceans

#140

Post by TeMPOraL »

agumonkey wrote: post #138
TeMPOraL wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are we? I don't see the similarity yet. What I had in mind was an information source for individual decision-making (what to work on to best tackle problem X, how things are going), whereas politics is more about deciding as a group what problems are worth solving and then ordering resources to be directed into them.

Maybe I used the wrong word, "government" ? I mean, joining forces to fix or improve the place we live in is the root of ideal politics/government.

Maybe, yes, but "politics"/"government" in this aspect is already a recusrive phenomenon - people self-organize on national scale, city scale, block-of-flats scale, etc.

Still, I don't think we need to try and make another body that would tell people what to do. Instead, I'm thinking of helping people who want to help by telling them where that help would have biggest impact, and as a secondary effect, creating a high-level overview of the scope of important issues[0]. Less of a government, more of an information service, I guess.

--

[0] - even just reading and responding in this thread, I learned about areas that I never realized impact ocean acidification.

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