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A Physicist Who Denies That Dark Matter Exists

cosmos.nautil.us

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Re: A Physicist Who Denies That Dark Matter Exists

#181
post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Bullet Cluster isn’t the incontrovertible evidence for particle dark matter that you have been told it is http://backreaction.blogspot.nl/2017/01/the-bullet-cluster-a...

I wouldn't agree with that post - the probabilities and number of clusters imply we'd expect a bullet cluster. In fact, we observe other similar lower-mass systems. As an astronomer in the field of clusters, I don't know anyone who takes MOND-like theories seriously. Any non dark matter explanation for the bullet cluster would have to be extremely contrived.

I doubt she thinks MOND is a candidate for a family of fundamental theories (MOND itself is not relativistic; fixes for that -- at least where the result is a metric theory -- tend to cause geometry problems at solar system and cosmological length scales, and relic radiation is also extremely sensitive to geometry; and why would an extended metric theory have a better answer to perturbative non-renormalizability?).

However, there's lots of scope for taking an unphysical and even incomplete theory seriously [this supergravity researcher puts it well: https://arstechnica.com/science/2013/05/earning-a-phd-by-stu... ]

Relativistic approaches to MOND might eventually raise interesting questions about the EFT, and those are what a QG phenomenologist lives for. So it's easy to see why she'd take MOND seriously without taking it too seriously.

(As an example, Verlinde's recent work is partly provoked by MOND, and it's also nice to see a string theorist step outside of the AdS comfort zone and confront what we see in our sky).

Re: A Physicist Who Denies That Dark Matter Exists

#182
post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can apply Occam's Razor here. Which is more likely? That there's stuff that has a mass but doesn't interact well with light, or that space is able to curve itself without mass, thus also rendering Einstein false. This immediately raises further questions: How long does space remember? How's the exact mechanism? Where and how does empty space store that information? What happens to E=mc2?

If you know what Einstein discovered he clearly explained gravity can exist without mass. Look up the stress-energy tensor. Clearly, Occam's Razor can only be applied correctly if you can distinguish what you really know from what are actually your assumptions. Not only do people hear what they want - but those who don't know don't know they don't know.

Errr, the stress-energy tensor T^{\alpha\beta} is the matter tensor.

Did you mean the metric tensor g_{\mu\nu} or the Ricci curvature tensor R_{\mu\nu}?

"Gravitational field" is one of those shifty things in GR that makes one sympathetic to MTW's refusal to identify the term with any particular mathematical object.

You're right though; there are plenty of exact solutions to the Einstein Field Equation which are vacuum solutions -- no matter, just gravity.

Re: A Physicist Who Denies That Dark Matter Exists

#183
post #176
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My impression was that QFT includes gravity and "only" breaks down when things get extreme, i.e. black holes/big bang/etc.

No, there is no quantum theory of gravity & QFT doesn’t include gravity at all. The best you can do is add gravitational effects as an after-thought, but the things you might analyse with the full QFT are generally far too small & short lived for gravitational effects to matter anyway.

> No, there is no quantum theory of gravity

Here's a couple of examples of quantum theories of gravity.

http://www.phys.lsu.edu/faculty/pullin/talks/pire1.pdf

http://www.staff.science.uu.nl/~hooft101/lectures/erice02.pd...

http://einrichtungen.ph.tum.de/T31/seminars-past/seminar-tal...

http://www.damtp.cam.ac.uk/research/gr/public/qg_ss.html

The extent to which these are complete, consistent, natural (in the fine-tuning sense), and so forth is debatable but these are certainly existing examples of quantum theories of gravity, and indeed the first is a perfectly reasonable Effective Field Theory that people work in regularly.

> QFT doesn’t include gravity at all

I think you mean "The Standard Model of Particle Physics", which is a quantum field theory (as is e.g. perturbative quantum gravity).

> the things you might analyse with the full QFT

Atoms and molecules have gravitational fields; when you send one through a double slit, which way does their gravitational field go?

http://www.nature.com/nnano/journal/v7/n5/abs/nnano.2012.34....

A quantum theory of gravity is needed to answer that.

Assemble a huge number of particles in superposition with 1/(sqrt 2) (|M @ a> + |M @ b>), with a & b separated. A quantum theory of gravity is needed to describe the gravitational influence of M on a small test object (General Relativity's answer is just wrong :( ).

Re: A Physicist Who Denies That Dark Matter Exists

#184
post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, this misses the point i'm making however - I think fields connote more than just the "excited state" part (the particle). Particles aren't exactly the same idea because they don't explain the coupling between fields, or things like 'virtual particles' which don't "count" as real particles but have important real behaviors of the field itself.

The problem is that your "lens" statement doesn't convey much information; if it goes deep, unfortunately it's not obvious. For example, it doesn't tell anyone whether you think that CDM is sparticles or a quantization of a function on the Ricci scalar or of a second metric or whatever. The latter two are awfully hard to distinguish from relativistic approaches to MOND; indeed you could quantize most of the approache…

> you wrote essentially the same comment

.. on the same topic regarding dark matter. Is there a "no duplicate comments" rule? Topics are often cyclic on HN, I don't see why an answer has to change for the same recurring topic.

I'm afraid I don't know much about CDM or sparticles or Ricci scalars.

My comment isn't intended to be a self-contained proof of my inclination here. It is simply intended as a "this is my feeling or belief on this matter absent any further exploration " e.g. I am not an expert.

I agree my statement doesn't contain much information, again it's just an uneducated feeling/guess.

So sure, I get that there's more to the story regarding the nuance between particles and fields than I hinted at. Your clarification of the differences shows that.

I also suspect you have a deeper understanding on the relationship between the two perspectives than most.. so comments like mine aren't as such addressed to folks with your background but rather to folks who don't have such a background and seem to omit the "field picture" in lay discussions.

Re: A Physicist Who Denies That Dark Matter Exists

#185
post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that your "lens" statement doesn't convey much information; if it goes deep, unfortunately it's not obvious. For example, it doesn't tell anyone whether you think that CDM is sparticles or a quantization of a function on the Ricci scalar or of a second metric or whatever. The latter two are awfully hard to distinguish from relativistic approaches to MOND; indeed you could quantize most of the approache…

> you wrote essentially the same comment .. on the same topic regarding dark matter. Is there a "no duplicate comments" rule? Topics are often cyclic on HN, I don't see why an answer has to change for the same recurring topic. I'm afraid I don't know much about CDM or sparticles or Ricci scalars. My comment isn't intended to be a self-contained proof of my inclination here. It is simply intended as a "this is my feel…

Ok. Here's some rough explanations for some of the things in your reply.

Wherever you have a quantum field, you have particles, at least for some set of observers in a relativistic quantum field theory. You were right that there are lots of subtleties in a complicated QFT like an extension of the Standard Model that includes CDM, but this generic property of relativistic QFTs is behind the term "particle dark matter".

CDM is "cold dark matter". Matter because it's a source of gravitation; cold because it moves very slowly compared to the speed of light (otherwise it would run away from galaxies rather than hanging around keeping them heavy); dark because it doesn't feel electromagnetism.

From the perspective of a relativist, CDM need not be particle dark matter. However, we can treat General Relativity as a field theory and can even quantize it (with some caveats) and the result gives us particles (gravitons in perturbative quantum gravity). New degrees of freedom that are "gravitational" are probably only "gravitational" in terms of the strength of interactions with other particles (i.e., very weak) but will still be representable as e.g. a gauge boson.

In a quantum field theory like the Standard Model, the fields' local contents are invariant under a set of transformations. When a configuration (like a proton) looks the same under various transformations, there is a symmetry at work preserving that invariant "look", much like when you rotate a circle around its centre in the Euclidean plane, it looks the same whatever angle you turn it.

The Standard Model has a number of parameters whose values are only known empirically, mostly by experiment, with little clue about why the values are the way they are. A common approach to reducing the number of such parameters involves expanding the symmetry group. Supersymmetry is one such approach, and creates a bunch of "superpartner" particles -- sparticles -- for each of the particles in the Standard Model. In minimalist supersymmetry theories, the lowest-mass sparticle tends to have the characteristics of Cold Dark Matter listed above. Other sparticles appear and can (via a new symmetry) explain apparent problems in the Standard Model.

The Ricci scalar is a value at each point in spacetime that describes the curviness of a shell of all points at the same distance from that point or equivalently the internal volume of such a shell. When the scalar increases at a point, the surface of the ball is locally flatter or equivalently the internal volume is smaller. If you move a ball through a region of spacetime where the Ricci scalar takes on various values, an observer at the centre of the shell will think the shell is more or less cramped as the value changes up and down, while a small observer standing on the outside of the shell will see the "ground" curve away (or the horizon move closer, equivalently) as the Ricci scalar decreases. If you seriously increase the Ricci scalar inside the Earth you would still measure a diameter of about 12 700 km, but from eye-level you could see to the other side of your continent. Likewise, if you seriously decrease the Ricci curvature below zero, you'd measure the same diameter of 12 700 km, but from eye-level your next door neighbour's house would be over the horizon.

The Ricci scalar appears on the gravity side of the Einstein Field Equations along with other quantities describing how lengths, durations and angles are calculated at each point.

Re: A Physicist Who Denies That Dark Matter Exists

#186
post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> would require like extra dimensions with funny topology for gravity to be traveling though. Why? I think I can use simple force formula such as F=k/r without any idea of extra dimensions or topology.

Geometrically if a force radiates uniformly it either A)has infinite density B)drops off as 1/r^2 We know that gravity drops off as 1/r^2 for all cases except galaxy rotation curves so for it become 1/r for just this specific scale requires that from gravity's perspective the surface area of a sphere usually but doesn't always increase as r^2. Which in turn means it doesn't move through the 3 spacial dimensions that…

> it either A)has infinite density B)drops off as 1/r^2

How did you arrive at this? Which force has infinite density and where? k/r is finite except at the point where the source is, the formula is invalid there.

Re: A Physicist Who Denies That Dark Matter Exists

#187
post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, there is no quantum theory of gravity & QFT doesn’t include gravity at all. The best you can do is add gravitational effects as an after-thought, but the things you might analyse with the full QFT are generally far too small & short lived for gravitational effects to matter anyway.

> No, there is no quantum theory of gravity Here's a couple of examples of quantum theories of gravity. http://www.phys.lsu.edu/faculty/pullin/talks/pire1.pdf http://www.staff.science.uu.nl/~hooft101/lectures/erice02.pd... http://einrichtungen.ph.tum.de/T31/seminars-past/seminar-tal... http://www.damtp.cam.ac.uk/research/gr/public/qg_ss.html The extent to which these are complete, consistent, natural (in the fine-tun…

I’m not sure I believe that a mathematical formalism that is unable to make useful real world predictions deserves the “theory” moniker. Hence your list of quantum theories of gravity aren’t.

But perhaps that’s me being picky :)

> I think you mean "The Standard Model of Particle Physics", which is a quantum field theory (as is e.g. perturbative quantum gravity).

Sure: I was just quoting the parent comment & using the term informally to stand in for the mouthful that is TSMoPP.

(I’d love to see an experimental setup that was capable of detecting the gravitational field of a single molecule: that would be impressive!)

Re: A Physicist Who Denies That Dark Matter Exists

#188
post #3

> "If Newtonian physics can’t predict the fixed curves, perhaps we should fix Newton, instead of making up a whole new class of matter just to fit our measurements." I've always felt this way about dark matter, but as a lay person with no background in physics, it's an opinion I'm hesitant to express. if you have a model that predicts something, but the prediction is off by several orders of magnitude, the model is w…

Your intuition is just right, the way theorists are adding the dark matter/dark energy factor just to make their models fit with observations is the equivalent of 19st century methodology leading to the consideration of space filled with ether. We are just living in a pre-Eisntein like era regarding this issue.

Re: A Physicist Who Denies That Dark Matter Exists

#189
post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> No, there is no quantum theory of gravity Here's a couple of examples of quantum theories of gravity. http://www.phys.lsu.edu/faculty/pullin/talks/pire1.pdf http://www.staff.science.uu.nl/~hooft101/lectures/erice02.pd... http://einrichtungen.ph.tum.de/T31/seminars-past/seminar-tal... http://www.damtp.cam.ac.uk/research/gr/public/qg_ss.html The extent to which these are complete, consistent, natural (in the fine-tun…

I’m not sure I believe that a mathematical formalism that is unable to make useful real world predictions deserves the “theory” moniker. Hence your list of quantum theories of gravity aren’t. But perhaps that’s me being picky :) > I think you mean "The Standard Model of Particle Physics", which is a quantum field theory (as is e.g. perturbative quantum gravity). Sure: I was just quoting the parent comment & using the…

> I’m not sure I believe that a mathematical formalism that is unable to make useful real world predictions deserves the “theory” moniker. Hence your list of quantum theories of gravity aren’t.

On the contrary, the ones I listed are all completely in accord with General Relativity up to strong gravity and absent superposed sources, which is found from studying the renormalization group flow of perturbative quantum gravity and is four loops of gravitons in a 3+1 dimensional spacetime. Strong gravity can only be found very close to the singularity of black holes (and well inside event horizons, except at the final evaporation), or in the very early universe. So we're good for neutron stars, and have no problems studying things around the event horizons of astrophysical black holes.

The only new mathematical formalism in perturbative quantum gravity is renormalization, and that goes back to the 1980s. Perturbative quantum gravity itself comes from the 1990s.

Sean Carroll has a good explanation of renormalization and effective field theory here:

http://www.preposterousuniverse.com/blog/2013/06/20/how-quan...

Asymptotically safe gravity posits an ultraviolet fixed point at which one can take a finite number of measurements, producing a strong gravity completion that perturbative renormalzation cannot; this is prompted by asymptotic safety in QCD. Below that limit, ASG completely matches perturbative quantum gravity, and so in the EFT limit it's the same as General Relativity.

There are five or six of other viable families of quantum theories of gravity, where viability means they accord exactly with perturbatively quantized General Relativity in its effective field limit, and thus agree completely with GR in the classical limit and weak gravity, and additionally are candidates as fundamental theories because they do not rely on perturbative renormalization by power counting and thus are expected to be useful to arbitrarily high energies.

Additionally it is not wildly irresponsible to think that mathematical research (perhaps not driven by physics!) will produce a tractable renormalization that does not require nature to select a convenient effect to suppress the explosion of parameters at high energies.

> I’d love to see an experimental setup that was capable of detecting the gravitational field of a single molecule: that would be impressive!

Everyone would. We're down below milligrams and yoctoNewtons:

https://arxiv.org/abs/1602.07539

http://newscenter.lbl.gov/2014/06/26/smallest-force-ever-mea...

I'm not as au fait about how the other side of the tunnel is approaching the ultimate meeting point, but it's not unreasonable to think of nanogram masses in superposition. Experiments were only at thousands of atomic mass units a few years ago, though: https://arxiv.org/abs/1310.8343

Unfortunately General Relativity can only have the whole gravitational influence of these molecules go through one or the other slits. However all of the quantum theories in my previous message have the distribution of the gravitational influence follow distribution of the matter, as one would expect.

Re: A Physicist Who Denies That Dark Matter Exists

#190
post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m not sure I believe that a mathematical formalism that is unable to make useful real world predictions deserves the “theory” moniker. Hence your list of quantum theories of gravity aren’t. But perhaps that’s me being picky :) > I think you mean "The Standard Model of Particle Physics", which is a quantum field theory (as is e.g. perturbative quantum gravity). Sure: I was just quoting the parent comment & using the…

> I’m not sure I believe that a mathematical formalism that is unable to make useful real world predictions deserves the “theory” moniker. Hence your list of quantum theories of gravity aren’t. On the contrary, the ones I listed are all completely in accord with General Relativity up to strong gravity and absent superposed sources, which is found from studying the renormalization group flow of perturbative quantum gr…

I think we’re disagreeing over terminology rather than the actual physics?

But I’ll chase up some of the ASG references. Thanks for those.

(yoctoNewtons! We live in amazing times...)

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