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Should economists be more concerned about AI?

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Re: Should economists be more concerned about AI?

#101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know how you can come to this conclusion. Machines are even encroaching upon artistic and creative endeavors, territory once taught to be the province of humans. From drawing to composing music to acting (Grand Moff Tarkin, please stand up), they are advancing. Machines unequivocally surpass my abilities in said fields.

> From drawing to composing music to acting (Grand Moff Tarkin, please stand up), How many people and how many hours do you think it took to bring that character to life? As compared to the time of a human actor? (Not claiming in general that it takes as many people to run a machine as it did to do the job manually, but it almost certainly did in that case.) We're not anywhere near the point where arbitrary creative…

> How many people and how many hours do you think it took to bring that character to life? As compared to the time of a human actor?

I suggest you take a deep dive into the field of computational creativity. That's the first iteration. The next time, it will be less, and less the time after that. As advances are made, machines will simply have to be trained with the libraries of movies and tv shows of the past. not only that, with all the data it has on us (thanks FB), it will be able to predict what type of performance we would find the most entertaining. I remember one researcher saying that with about 300 Facebook likes, he can create a model of preferences that knows us better than we know ourselves.

There are already machines composing music. If you can play piano, try out Google Duet

> There's an endless supply of interesting challenges

Sure there is. But how many of these new, interesting challenges employ people on a large scale? Contrary to what you believe, there hasn't been an explosion of new job opportunities afforded by technology. At its height, GM employed almost 600,000 people. Facebook, a company with a market cap of nearly $400 billion, has 17,000 employees. These new jobs will not be able to absorb the losses. And how many people in their 40's or above will be successful at retraining or acquiring new skills?

> I don't think AI will be any different (at least not before it becomes fully general and human-equivalent).

You're missing the point. It doesn't have to be fully general or human equivalent. It just has to be more cost effective. Like a robot can not fully substitute for a human janitor (eg shooting the shit with the employee working late). But if the machine costs less and never takes a vacation or sick day, the job will be replaced. And as any investment professional will tell you, the past does not predict the future.

yThe occupations that employ the most people have existed for more or less hundreds, if not thousands of years. Top 5 occupations by # of workers are: Transportation, Retail Sales, 1st line supervisors, cashiers, and secretaries. Collectively, they represent over 15 million people. Cooks, accountants, customer service, paralegals, clerks, bookkeepers, receptionsts, maids, etc are all capable of being done. And remember, it doesn't have to be perfect or even better than a human, just more cost effectively.

> People have invented whole classes of new jobs that didn't exist a few decades ago.

The only new occupation that didn't exist hundreds of years ago (programmers) is 33rd on the list of occupations with the most people. These new classes aren't created fast enough to keep up with the number of jobs that will be destroyed. Also, it's a poor argument to look to the past to say why this will be the same. People never went faster than the speed of horse until the steam engine (ppl literally fainted on train rides from the speed). Now, we've clocked speeds at 25000 mph. Man never flew till the early 20th century, now we've reached the moon. The amount of things that people thought would never change that happened in the 20th and 21st century is staggering, and is only accelerating. It only has to happen once to falsify patterns of the past.

The internet and printing press are poor analogies, as is any other comparison to a previous technology. As a mental exercise, think about the buggy whip from the point of view of the horse (the actual worker in this case). Hooves, plows, and other technological advances previously made your life easier. The automobile made you obsolete. Sure, we still have uses for horses today, but not like in the past.

> massive net increase in jobs. People have invented whole classes of new jobs that didn't exist a few decades ago.

I disagree. The internet has just provided a new medium for exchange. Ebay sellers are just merchants. People on Etsy are craftsmen. Uber and UberEats "contractors" are drivers(transportation). These classes of jobs have existed for THOUSANDS of years. In the case of Uber, a class of jobs, the one that just so happens to employ the most people in the US, more than any other occupation, will soon be obsolete, like the jobs of horses above. Services like Squarespace and Wix are making the job of the strict Web Designer obsolete. If you knew html and CSS, you had a job. Now, with the 3847078103720 JAvascript tools and libraries you have to know, if you can't keep up, you're obsolete. (Learn the fundamentals kids)

> I'd describe it as AI freeing up humans to work on other endeavors.

It could, and I hope it does. Looking at human social progress doesn't give me much hope for that

Re: Should economists be more concerned about AI?

#102

Something interesting that I learned recently from a former Dean of the Industrial Labor Relations School at Cornell: Worry over automation destroying jobs is almost as old as automation itself. Researchers have yet to find solid evidence that automation has ever destroyed jobs. Now, that of course, doesn't mean that this is some immutable law of the universe that automation will never destroy jobs. But it does mean…

They don't need to destroy jobs. Just lower wages by competing with human workers. Arguably this may have already happened, if you look at how wages have fallen or remained stagnate over the past few decades. Once the value of human labor falls below minimum wage, then there is unemployment. There is no law of economics that says technology can't compete with human workers or that wages can't fall. Look what happened…

Even if AI can program computers, it's still difficult to replace programmers because programming comes hand in hand with analysis - process analysis, system analysis, design, security, interfacing with old projects and interacting with human teams. AI won't replace a programmer's external knowledge before it reaches the level of AGI.

A horse or an assembly line worker do lots of repetitive work. A programmer does lots of non-repetitive/creative work. It's a whole different game. There are examples of creative AI but it is clearly inferior to humans in music, painting, poetry, translation and many other tasks, while in programming it's completely incapable as of yet.

Maybe if conversational agents become good enough to replace lots of websites and apps - that could make a dent. Yet chatbots are quite limited today and in the next few years. It could take 5-10 years before they can be good enough to threaten app makers, and in the meantime there is a glut of unused apps.

The largest threat to programmers is Wordpress, Facebook and Ebay in my opinion. Instead of paying for a new website, Joe Business Owner would suffice with just a FB page or a Wordpress blog. Instead of making an online store, he would prefer being a simple Amazon or Ebay reseller.

Re: Should economists be more concerned about AI?

#103
post #64
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Absolutely agreed. I think the GP's viewpoint was widely shared by "The Elite" for the past 10 years and is what created the backlash that got Trump elected. We (and I use that loosely) have to care because the people who get displaced all care about their jobs. In fact, because this displacement is accelerating, we have to care even more than we would in the past.

>I think the GP's viewpoint was widely shared by "The Elite" for the past 10 years and is what created the backlash that got Trump elected. Why do you think that? If by backlash you mean people (Trump voters) wanting social support to deal with those problems, I see zero evidence of that. The extreme anti-immigration views indicate that the opposite is true and Trump voters think people are taking advantage of social…

I think there is evidence that it put Trump barely over the top in critical midwestern states.

Re: Should economists be more concerned about AI?

#104
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Researchers have yet to find solid evidence that automation has ever destroyed jobs. This is completely untrue. Ball State University found that job loss in the 2000s due to automation dwarfed the loss caused by free trade[1]. There is tons of other research that corroborates that[2]. [1] http://projects.cberdata.org/reports/MfgReality.pdf [2] https://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/21/upshot/the-long-term-jobs...

Title of the study: "The Myth and Reality of Manufacturing in America" As I said in my other comment, there is absolutely no guarantee that technology won't completely shift jobs from one nation to another. Just as individuals don't have a god given right to a job, nations don't have a god given right to an industry. In both cases, you have to work for it. That's the actual reality. Here in America we don't like eith…

What exactly are you arguing?

Re: Should economists be more concerned about AI?

#105
post #61
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like that difference is overstated. Weaving was once a highly skilled profession requiring intricate control by an intelligent operator yet it was increasingly automated even before the advent of computing. I think the difference in what we consider "force" work and what is "mind" work is highly subjective to the things we've grown used to thinking of as menial based on the technology we've learned to take for…

Weaving is clearly a mechanical task that required a mind to control the hardware. Problem-solving is not a mechanical task.

> Problem-solving is not a mechanical task

Food for thought: how sure are we that this statement is true? What does it even mean, seen from a cybernetics perspective? How complex does a task need to be until it's not considered mechanical anymore? Isn't the brain, eventually, a very complex biological machine?

Re: Should economists be more concerned about AI?

#106
post #64
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Absolutely agreed. I think the GP's viewpoint was widely shared by "The Elite" for the past 10 years and is what created the backlash that got Trump elected. We (and I use that loosely) have to care because the people who get displaced all care about their jobs. In fact, because this displacement is accelerating, we have to care even more than we would in the past.

>I think the GP's viewpoint was widely shared by "The Elite" for the past 10 years and is what created the backlash that got Trump elected. Why do you think that? If by backlash you mean people (Trump voters) wanting social support to deal with those problems, I see zero evidence of that. The extreme anti-immigration views indicate that the opposite is true and Trump voters think people are taking advantage of social…

What was huge, was the perception that trade, specifically NAFTA, China, and TPP cause people to lose their jobs. The perception that the elite, and Hilary Clinton, supported those things, even when sometimes they said they didn't is what caused the backlash.

Re: Should economists be more concerned about AI?

#107
post #61
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like that difference is overstated. Weaving was once a highly skilled profession requiring intricate control by an intelligent operator yet it was increasingly automated even before the advent of computing. I think the difference in what we consider "force" work and what is "mind" work is highly subjective to the things we've grown used to thinking of as menial based on the technology we've learned to take for…

Weaving is clearly a mechanical task that required a mind to control the hardware. Problem-solving is not a mechanical task.

Weaving is mechanical yes.

It is also very difficult to do unless you are just making plain single color fabric.

Re: Should economists be more concerned about AI?

#108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are the jobs that are created, in aggregate, as good as the jobs that are replaced? If we lose 10,000 jobs at $25 an hour, and replace them with 12,000 jobs at $9 an hour, is that trend sustainable? Other factors need to be taken into consideration. Did the original jobs provide health care, childcare and other benefits, while the new jobs do not? Did the original jobs provide ample overtime opportunities, while the…

"Are the jobs that are created, in aggregate, as good as the jobs that are replaced?" Are you living at a higher material standard than people at the dawn of the industrial revolution? Are you living at a higher material standard than the people in the 1980's? If 'yes' - then wages (as defined by their purchasing power) have increased.

The problem is that there are large portions of the country that answer no to: "Are you living at a higher material standard than the people in the 1980's?".

Re: Should economists be more concerned about AI?

#109

A small thought. When AI gets good-ish then would it work sort of like this: You go to a supermarket and ask it where the beans are, it tells you. It reminds you to pick up toothpaste. You go to the checkout, but to the AI enabled one because the AI is nice and chatty and asks how your day was. You pop into mcdonalds and the AI greets you, asks you what you'd like to eat (I imagine it will be on a screen as you walk…

I am pretty sure we will see a move to nationalize basic production. If you think about it it actually make sense as there is no more competitive advantage to be had if the entire ecosystem is automated.

Automation doesn't mean no competitive advantage.

Re: Should economists be more concerned about AI?

#110
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Researchers have yet to find solid evidence that automation has ever destroyed jobs. This is completely untrue. Ball State University found that job loss in the 2000s due to automation dwarfed the loss caused by free trade[1]. There is tons of other research that corroborates that[2]. [1] http://projects.cberdata.org/reports/MfgReality.pdf [2] https://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/21/upshot/the-long-term-jobs...

Title of the study: "The Myth and Reality of Manufacturing in America" As I said in my other comment, there is absolutely no guarantee that technology won't completely shift jobs from one nation to another. Just as individuals don't have a god given right to a job, nations don't have a god given right to an industry. In both cases, you have to work for it. That's the actual reality. Here in America we don't like eith…

As a completely practical matter, a country is entitled to do what it wants to protect an industry. I'd agree that it is usually a bad idea, but every country does it to some degree. If France decides it has a right (god given, or lawfully given) to a wine industry then it can ban all wine imports. I'm not sure why you'd call out America for this, it has been far more open to trade than most countries, and benefitted from it. UNfortunately it has left some people behind and caused a backlash.
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