The Secret Lives of Professors (What Being a Professor is Really Like) • Hacker News Board

Re: The Secret Lives of Professors (What Being a Professor is Really Like)

#41

Post by wisty » Tue, May 25, 2010, 9:11 AM UTC

tensor wrote: post #24

winzie wrote: post #19

I can certainly see the entrepreneurial aspect of being a professor -- managing a lab, hiring and firing people, and sourcing funding, and I don't disagree that professors are there to inspire the next generation. However, there is still a part of me that feels professors have that "safety net". Tenured professors are paid a monthly salary by the university, and often times at / above industry (that's true at least i…

As others have said, you pay a LOT to get that tenured position. You also risk a lot. Imagine being 32 and just starting a tenure track position. All your friends in industry are already earning nearly 100k and have been earning decent salaries all the while you were in graduate school and post-docs for the past eight years. They already have houses, cars, and other items giving them some form of security. You are ma…

On salary, keep in mind that getting tenure is a "tournament" game, just like getting a VP (or CXO) position. You have to work hard, and prove that you are better than all your peers (who are also pretty damn smart, and are also working hard).

The rewards are there (until someone decides that a restructure will get rid of all the deadwood - people who won the tournament then quite rationally began resting on their laurels) but it's not an easy game to play.

Re: The Secret Lives of Professors (What Being a Professor is Really Like)

#42

Post by arethuza » Tue, May 25, 2010, 9:28 AM UTC

greendestiny wrote: post #29

amichail wrote: post #4

It's more fun to create something novel that many people use and appreciate (e.g., an iPhone game). Much better than research prototypes that go no where beyond a publication or two.

Those downvotes seem harsh. I agree with you. While amazing, groundbreaking research is possible in academic computer science - the general lifecycle of research is some irrelevant poorly made prototype that ignores any number of real world concerns and leads to a couple of uninspired papers that noone reads. The point of making game is actually in having an effect on people, mostly the point of writing papers is pad…

At the end of my time in academia I had become, as one friend put it "hyper cynical". However, this actually made me much better at playing the publications game - pretty much every collaboration with colleagues involved some negotiation over where in the list of authors my name would go.

I left, co-founded a company, moved onto other things and have never regretted leaving academia - I much prefer building things people do use to writing papers about things that people will probably ignore (that being the fate of most academic research).

The only bit about academic life that I wouldn't mind having is the nice juicy final salary pension scheme!

Re: The Secret Lives of Professors (What Being a Professor is Really Like)

#43

Post by greendestiny » Tue, May 25, 2010, 10:00 AM UTC

arethuza wrote: post #42

greendestiny wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those downvotes seem harsh. I agree with you. While amazing, groundbreaking research is possible in academic computer science - the general lifecycle of research is some irrelevant poorly made prototype that ignores any number of real world concerns and leads to a couple of uninspired papers that noone reads. The point of making game is actually in having an effect on people, mostly the point of writing papers is pad…

At the end of my time in academia I had become, as one friend put it "hyper cynical". However, this actually made me much better at playing the publications game - pretty much every collaboration with colleagues involved some negotiation over where in the list of authors my name would go. I left, co-founded a company, moved onto other things and have never regretted leaving academia - I much prefer building things pe…

Yeah I think the other comments in this thread are extremely optimistic about the nature of academic research. The incentives just don't line up to do great work, its not that its absolutely impossible though. I miss teaching, though I was only never an academic as such, just did a PhD.

Re: The Secret Lives of Professors (What Being a Professor is Really Like)

#44

Post by nagrom » Tue, May 25, 2010, 10:04 AM UTC

abstractbill wrote: post #5

This nicely sums up a bunch of reasons why I decided not to do a postdoc, and instead joined my first startup after finishing my PhD. I'm sure it works for some people, but I just couldn't see myself being happy with it.

This depends on your situation. I'm doing a post doc right now, while looking for something else. But I was 24 when I got my PhD, and through the post doc position got the chance to go and live in Japan, China, Germany and Switzerland. I set my own hours, work on whatever I want within reason and get a lot of shiny toys to play with.

I probably don't want to become a lecturer because I see it as a service job - you're dealing with members of the public. But doing a post doc has paid as much as I'd get in industry, but with a lot more freedom.

If I could find an interesting startup I'd probably leave though.

Re: The Secret Lives of Professors (What Being a Professor is Really Like)

#45

Post by _delirium » Tue, May 25, 2010, 10:39 AM UTC

liedra wrote: post #36

frossie wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Either we have too many scientists, or not enough science funding. A little bit of both, to which I would add a third: the way we fund science is... I'm going to charitably say "sub-optimal"

And then there's us lot in non-science disciplines who sit back and think "gosh, lucky scientists, they get all the funding..." :)

It tends to produce a treadmill, though--- since science funding is available, science profs are expected to get it. In some areas with less funding, it's perfectly normal for professors to have their students TA most of the time; but in most science departments, the prof's expected to pay a substantial proportion of their students from grant money, and it'll look bad if a prof is always "dumping students on the department" by funding them through TAships.

And if you're expected to pay your students, it takes a lot of money! One student, including tuition, stipend, and departmental overhead, costs around $50k, so if your lab is 5 students, you have to bring in $250k a year just to support your grad students. And if you start dipping below about $150k, so are supporting fewer than half your students, people will start grumbling, and it'll look bad for your tenure case. (You can't avoid it by having fewer students, either, because having only 2 students will also look bad for your tenure case.)

Re: The Secret Lives of Professors (What Being a Professor is Really Like)

#46

Post by yummyfajitas » Tue, May 25, 2010, 11:47 AM UTC

ephermata wrote: post #39

stoney wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As you said, there is not much in the way of direct financial compensation for having a PhD in industry, but it can act as a foot in the door and it can (depending on the company) mean you get treated a bit differently once you are hired. Researchy type projects tend to get pushed to people who are good at open ended researchy things, and having a PhD is a good indicator of that. For me the biggest value from my PhD…

What settings have you found where you could call yourself "doctor" without someone mistakenly believing you are an MD? The only ones I've found so far are in academia and at work, but in both cases it's not really that much of a boost. (At work everyone more or less has a PhD.)

The pub.

"Hey baby, I'm a doctor. I do radiology." (Both true statements.)

"Ooh, tell me more."

Re: The Secret Lives of Professors (What Being a Professor is Really Like)

#47

Post by silverlake » Tue, May 25, 2010, 1:20 PM UTC

anongradstudent wrote: post #28

timr wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same for me. I had a few opportunities for good post-docs, but I just couldn't see the point. I didn't really want to be a professor, and if you don't want to be a prof, a post-doc is just a really low-rent job.

Do you think there's a point to getting a PhD at all? I've been debating dropping out of my PhD program (after one year), mostly for personal reasons, but partially because most grads from my (top N) program end up not being able to land a research or academic position after graduation. If I end up like 95% of the graduates from my program, will it have been a waste of time? Is there any value in a PhD if you do your…

A PhD is required to do research in academia and most industry labs. Otherwise, it's a net loss. However, it's free and fun for a while (if you don't work for an asshole).

Re: The Secret Lives of Professors (What Being a Professor is Really Like)

#48

Post by pwhelan » Tue, May 25, 2010, 1:47 PM UTC

pgbovine wrote: post #6

phreeza wrote: post #2

I wish some of my professors would have read this as grad students. Become a professor because you love teaching, not because you want to do research. Which also raises the question whether there should be a similarly venerable(and compensated) position reserved for researchers who don't teach?

Which also raises the question whether there should be a similarly venerable(and compensated) position reserved for researchers who don't teach? an academic research lab sponsored by a big company (note that this is not the same as a corporate R&D division) ... in the 1970's, this was epitomized by Xerox PARC and AT&T Bell Labs. today, Microsoft Research is currently the leader in this category.

MSFT Research also sends the nicest rejection letters you can imagine.

Re: The Secret Lives of Professors (What Being a Professor is Really Like)

#49

Post by pwhelan » Tue, May 25, 2010, 1:53 PM UTC

_delirium wrote: post #7

phreeza wrote: post #2

I wish some of my professors would have read this as grad students. Become a professor because you love teaching, not because you want to do research. Which also raises the question whether there should be a similarly venerable(and compensated) position reserved for researchers who don't teach?

A handful of universities have Research Professor positions. At Carnegie Mellon, it's basically the same as a normal Professor (tenured, similar prestige, etc.), except that you don't normally teach, and in return, you're expected to fund a portion of your own salary out of the grants you bring in. (If you don't bring in grants some year, you can fall back on teaching to earn your keep, so research profs do occasiona…

Some of these profs will offer special classes that might otherwise not really get offered or have enough students to warrant forcing someone to teach.

I loved these classes because the profs were usually really passionate about the subject and that showed in their efforts. There was less droning on and emphasis on arcane, irrelevant minutiae and more "basic principles... now we build stuff and talk about the fun problems there". Those classes were so enjoyable that they almost made me pursue a PhD even though I am not right for that -- at least for now.

Re: The Secret Lives of Professors (What Being a Professor is Really Like)

#50

Post by larsberg » Tue, May 25, 2010, 2:04 PM UTC

anongradstudent wrote: post #28

timr wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same for me. I had a few opportunities for good post-docs, but I just couldn't see the point. I didn't really want to be a professor, and if you don't want to be a prof, a post-doc is just a really low-rent job.

Do you think there's a point to getting a PhD at all? I've been debating dropping out of my PhD program (after one year), mostly for personal reasons, but partially because most grads from my (top N) program end up not being able to land a research or academic position after graduation. If I end up like 95% of the graduates from my program, will it have been a waste of time? Is there any value in a PhD if you do your…

I'd recommend staying with it. If you're young (i.e. straight out of undergrad), it'll seem like the ~5 years you have left is a long time.

As somebody who spent some time working and then came back, though, it's just a short hop. The Ph.D. will only open doors for you in the future, and the six-year commitment is not an easy thing to do the older you get, with greater lifestyle expectations, family situation, and the general crotechety-ness that comes with time.