Programmers are confessing their sins to protest a broken job interview process • Hacker News Board

Re: Programmers are confessing their sins to protest a broken job interview process

#51

Post by entee » Tue, Feb 28, 2017, 9:40 PM UTC

jackmott wrote: post #25

aanm1988 wrote: post #8

> “Whiteboard” interviews are widely hated. They also discriminate against people who are already underrepresented in the field. I don't particularly like whiteboard interviews. How can they be discrimination if the expectations are laid out and are such that anyone can reasonably practice to reach them. I understand you can create a test that is deliberately discriminatory (e.g. voting tests). You can create a test…

underrepresented candidates have been acing our whiteboard interviews, and getting hired. The whole meme is so stupid I want to cry. "Asking field-relevant questions with objective answers is discriminatory, instead just have a chat. " Mother of god. Yes I understand the limitations and downsides of whiteboard questions, and in fact in future I'm thinking I won't do them on white boards anymore. But I'll still be ask…

I think the point is if someone is under-represented and they merely do "OK" on the whiteboard, other latent biases might downgrade the candidate in the final analysis. I do think it's relevant to ask people to code in some form, but this article makes me rethink the things I'm going to look for in those interview questions. Also, perhaps more useful might be to give them a small problem before they come in to the interview (1-2h work at most) and then go over it with them as part of the interview. That way you evaluate better how they work on a team, explain their thought process and actually do the job they'll be hired to do.

Re: Programmers are confessing their sins to protest a broken job interview process

#52

Post by sp332 » Tue, Feb 28, 2017, 9:40 PM UTC

catshirt wrote: post #21

kijeda wrote: post #12

Wasn't this in reaction to the story that Homeland Security had asked the question to a programmer entering the US? I don't know how this was extrapolated to a broken job interview process.

can you share a link?

https://twitter.com/cyberomin/status/835888786462625792?ref_...

Re: Programmers are confessing their sins to protest a broken job interview process

#53

Post by squarefoot » Tue, Feb 28, 2017, 9:41 PM UTC

kijeda wrote: post #12

Wasn't this in reaction to the story that Homeland Security had asked the question to a programmer entering the US? I don't know how this was extrapolated to a broken job interview process.

I believe it's in reaction to the malpractice of hiring programmers according to their results on a purely theoretical exam at the whiteboard, and sometimes disregarding completely their precedent works, published projects, etc.

I'm sure there are other examples predating it, but the following I believe is the 1st account of a Google interview gone bad for someone who very likely didn't deserve to get kicked in the butt (Max Howell, author of Homebrew for MacOS). https://twitter.com/mxcl/status/608682016205344768

Re: Programmers are confessing their sins to protest a broken job interview process

#54

Post by guessmyname » Tue, Feb 28, 2017, 9:42 PM UTC

I have found three different categories for tech-related interviews:

1. Algorithm and data structures trivia: which includes the classic CtCI [1],

2. In-house problems: where you have to analyze and propose multiple solutions to a problem that has been faced by the current development team in the company that is executing the interview,

3. Homework-like projects: which usually take 3-7 days to finish.

After an exhausting 2016 full of interviews I do not know which one is worse.

On one hand, having a common set of problems like the ones proposed in CtCI is good because you just prepare once (kind of) and can apply to multiple companies at the same time. On the other hand, in-house problems are good if you really want to work for a specific company and want to know what are the problems that your future co-workers are facing, the problem is that you have to be well versed in a wide range of concepts to give at least one answer that pleases the lead developer. And finally, the take-home projects, I think they are the worse in comparison, you are expected to work for free for at least one day in a problem that is either very basic or too complicated but they always expect you to have a perfect solution just by yourself. How many times have you done this in your own job? Do you start working in a solution to a problem without asking questions? Without a discussion with your colleagues? Without full specifications? Without multiple attempts? Take-home projects are really not suitable for an interview.

I understand the point of these tweets but I doubt they will change anything. Much of the craziness of nowadays interviews comes from the recruiters who have no idea about these problems, they don't know algorithms and/or data structures, they don't know what are the problems that the company is facing, they only care about the money that the company will give them if the candidate is hired. Now you know why websites like Hackerrank [2] are so popular, recruiters love to have a standard set of questions and if your answer is not the exact same that is in their sheets you lose.

From now on I will just resort to colleague's referral. With this I know that at least one member of the team will vouch for me to join the company and make the interview process as painless as possible because they already have an idea of how good of an engineer I am.

[1] https://www.amazon.com/dp/0984782850

[2] https://www.hackerrank.com/

Re: Programmers are confessing their sins to protest a broken job interview process

#55

Post by jackmott » Tue, Feb 28, 2017, 9:42 PM UTC

kijeda wrote: post #46

catshirt wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

can you share a link?

http://www.news.com.au/travel/travel-advice/travellers-stori... There have been others come to light since, but this was two weeks ago.

what others have come to light? I apologize if these stories have been confirmed, but at the moment I am not believing it.

Re: Programmers are confessing their sins to protest a broken job interview process

#56

Post by entee » Tue, Feb 28, 2017, 9:42 PM UTC

vp89 wrote: post #48

Its counter intuitive but whiteboarding is actually more inclusive IMO. Anyone who has 35 bucks can lock themselves in a room for 3 months with a copy of CTCI and a pad of paper and come out with an 80+k salary. You cant do that in any other industry. If we judge candidates purely on work experience that just favors the incumbents who have already broken into the industry and presumably already quite comfortable in l…

That assumes the interview accurately measures something useful. The more I read about this area the more I think a 1-2h pre-interview practical coding assignment, then a 1 on 1 discussion during the interview is better. You then get to understand how they think, how they design solutions, and some sense of how they interact. In other words, how they'd do the job.

Re: Programmers are confessing their sins to protest a broken job interview process

#57

Post by reboog711 » Tue, Feb 28, 2017, 9:44 PM UTC

ng12 wrote: post #6

> Hello, my name is David. I would fail to write bubble sort on a whiteboard. I look code up on the internet all the time. I don't do riddles. Does the interviewer explain what bubble sort is, or do they expect the candidate to know it? The first is a reasonable interview, the second one isn't.

Bubble Sort is a common sorting algorithm. I would expect anyone w/ a CS degree to know sort of what it is.

But, for the most part; I can't imagine anyone ever having to write it on the job unless they are doing super low level stuff. All the 'current' languages provide sorting algorithms built in.

Re: Programmers are confessing their sins to protest a broken job interview process

#58

Post by jackmott » Tue, Feb 28, 2017, 9:44 PM UTC

entee wrote: post #51

jackmott wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

underrepresented candidates have been acing our whiteboard interviews, and getting hired. The whole meme is so stupid I want to cry. "Asking field-relevant questions with objective answers is discriminatory, instead just have a chat. " Mother of god. Yes I understand the limitations and downsides of whiteboard questions, and in fact in future I'm thinking I won't do them on white boards anymore. But I'll still be ask…

I think the point is if someone is under-represented and they merely do "OK" on the whiteboard, other latent biases might downgrade the candidate in the final analysis. I do think it's relevant to ask people to code in some form, but this article makes me rethink the things I'm going to look for in those interview questions. Also, perhaps more useful might be to give them a small problem before they come in to the in…

>I think the point is if someone is under-represented and they merely do "OK" on the whiteboard, other latent biases might downgrade the candidate in the final analysis

But if you don't do a whiteboard interview, everyone is by default only OK. Biases rule the day. If you do a whiteboard interview, then at least they get a chance to do great and defy your biases.

Re: Programmers are confessing their sins to protest a broken job interview process

#59

Post by jjuel » Tue, Feb 28, 2017, 9:45 PM UTC

stale2002 wrote: post #50

m3kw9 wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sarcasm much?

Not sarcasm. If you don't know what fizz buzz means, it means that you didn't even bother to spend 5 minutes googling "programming interview questions". Do you really want to hire someone who didn't bother to put in even the tiniest, most basic level of effort into preparing for your interview? Its like going to an onsite interview and asking "so what does this company even do anyway? I didn't check before coming her…

Why should I have to prepare for some arbitrary question, though? You could ask any number of basic "whiteboard" questions and I have to prepare for them all? So you are going to deny what could be the best candidate for someone who just did a bunch of studying prior to the interview? How does this normally turn out for you? Do they tend to last and be good employees?

Re: Programmers are confessing their sins to protest a broken job interview process

#60

Post by brianpgordon » Tue, Feb 28, 2017, 9:47 PM UTC

> The process “freezes out many of the people who are underrepresented in the software development field,” Larson wrote. “If you’re busy working and raising kids, you want to spend as much of your scarce time as possible learning to code — not performing rote memorization that won’t matter once you start your job.”

I'm not sure I buy this argument. If you have one candidate who has seen all of this stuff before and can use it directly from memory, and another candidate who has been busy raising kids and has never seen this stuff before, who do you want to hire, all else being equal?

I could make an analogy to seeing a doctor. Say your kid is sick with a high fever. Do you want to see someone who did an EMT course at a local community college and hit the basic highlights of how to treat different symptoms, or do you want to see a doctor who had to take everything from organic chemistry to biology to anatomy to pharmacology courses? Sure the chance of any given piece of that training being relevant is small, but you want someone whose decisions are informed by a deep knowledge of the field.