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Strategic Consequences of Chinese Racism: Strategic Asymmetry for the USA (2013) [pdf]

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Re: Strategic Consequences of Chinese Racism: Strategic Asymmetry for the USA (2013) [pdf]

#2
I know very little about China, but the report mentions in passing that racism is pervasive in Russia where I was born, whereas Western societies have done a remarkable job addressing racism.

It is not obvious to me that the American approach of racial quotas in high education (which incidentally penalizes Asians very heavily today, perhaps more than any other group) is particularly different from the Soviet approach of racial quotas in high education (which to some degree penalized ethnic Russians by reserving spots for people from the other "republics", and heavily penalized students from "overrepresented" minorities, quite similarly to penalizing whites somewhat and Asians more heavily in today's US.) It doesn't seem different from Israel's affirmative action where Arabs get preferential treatment at the expense of Jews, either. Perhaps it seems reasonable to some to blame Chinese for not having racial quotas which supposedly "address" racism, but especially since Asian Americans get heavily penalized in the scheme, it's hard to respond to an argument from a Chinese person that the scheme doesn't address racism but institutionalizes it.

Nor is it obvious to me whether the average Westerner of any particular group is more or less racist than a citizen of Russia, including both ethnic Russians and those who are not. It's fairly obvious that the Westerner might be more reserved in expressing racist views, fearing repercussions, although at other times the Westerner will actually be very loudly racist if it is currently in vogue to be racist against this particular race (right now anti-white sentiment is celebrated, which, whatever its reasons, will surely produce terrible results; the broader point is that it's not obvious that being racist against one race at one time is fundamentally different than being racist against another at another time, and even if we agree that it's done for very different reasons, it does not follow that it will produce very different results.)

I'm not saying that Russian attitudes toward race are the same as Western attitudes, just that the report's claims about the Russian society and the Western societies which I kinda sorta know things about (though it's hard to summarize millions of people very precisely or to inform oneself about them fully in the first place) make me suspicious with respect to its main topics, Chinese attitudes to race. It would be interesting (though not necessarily representative of the entire Chinese population) to hear Chinese people weigh in on this.

Re: Strategic Consequences of Chinese Racism: Strategic Asymmetry for the USA (2013) [pdf]

#3
Interesting how often the perceived racial equality of the USA comes up as an advantage over China in terms of their perception in the developing world - I wonder if the policies of the Trump administration are in the process of tipping that balance the other way.

Re: Strategic Consequences of Chinese Racism: Strategic Asymmetry for the USA (2013) [pdf]

#5
post #4

Also surprising to many westerners is the extent to which Chine encourages and provides the opportunity for folks to volunteer for a eugenics programs: https://www.edge.org/response-detail/23838

Miller overstates his case. Aside from the total failure of the mentioned BGI project and it being beaten to the punch by the first IQ GWAS hits being released by the Western SSGAC consortium that very year (Rietveld et al 2013), Westerners practice a good deal of that 'Chinese eugenics' (look at Down rates, assortative mating, fertility rates by education level, and the practices of sperm & egg banks), and his (and Lynn's) estimate of the benefits of embryo selection of being 5-15 IQ points is considerably off because the upper bound set by heritability & average number of embryos in IVF is ~9 points and then half of them are lost to various steps, so even universal use of IVF would not deliver more than maybe 4.5 IQ points (see https://www.gwern.net/Embryo%20selection for my more detailed analysis of limits). I don't expect Chinese women to use IVF much more than Western women - there are limits to the tiger mother thing. (CRISPR, likewise, is greatly overrated.) The real discontinuous changes would come from technologies further down the pipeline: induced pluripotency to allow creation of hundreds of embryos to select from, iterated embryo selection, and genome synthesis.

Re: Strategic Consequences of Chinese Racism: Strategic Asymmetry for the USA (2013) [pdf]

#6
post #2

I know very little about China, but the report mentions in passing that racism is pervasive in Russia where I was born, whereas Western societies have done a remarkable job addressing racism. It is not obvious to me that the American approach of racial quotas in high education (which incidentally penalizes Asians very heavily today, perhaps more than any other group) is particularly different from the Soviet approach…

The "mention" is one sentence: "Racism is common at every level of Russian society and is at times explicitly voiced in Russia." This is true. How can this possibly make you suspicious about the article's main topics? You wrote a lot about nothing.

Re: Strategic Consequences of Chinese Racism: Strategic Asymmetry for the USA (2013) [pdf]

#7
There is a Chinese diaspora that fled famines and wars to many parts of the world, and the current generations no longer identify with the mainland Chinese. In fact there is a strong resentment for mainland Chinese in many parts of the world where there are significant overseas Chinese precisely because of the qualities laid out in the paper (i.e. racist attitudes, overbearing smugness from the nouveau rich etc)

Re: Strategic Consequences of Chinese Racism: Strategic Asymmetry for the USA (2013) [pdf]

#8
I don't think group conflict is a very well solved problem. I don't think we are able to achieve that, either. What I can see is when there is a group conflict, after the extra energy is vented, and the groups involved are still there, they look for mutual interests and fall back to that base and go from there. Race issue is one big example of this. We do have some system works better than others. But putting it into a bottle with absolute right mark on it may not be the best way to go under current situation.

I'm probably biased since I'm Chinese. I agree with most part of this report. The author did a lot of good homework. But I think his thoughts to work out those strategies need some update to better fit in the world today and tomorrow. There are similar parts and there are different parts.

Re: Strategic Consequences of Chinese Racism: Strategic Asymmetry for the USA (2013) [pdf]

#9
post #6
post #2

I know very little about China, but the report mentions in passing that racism is pervasive in Russia where I was born, whereas Western societies have done a remarkable job addressing racism. It is not obvious to me that the American approach of racial quotas in high education (which incidentally penalizes Asians very heavily today, perhaps more than any other group) is particularly different from the Soviet approach…

The "mention" is one sentence: "Racism is common at every level of Russian society and is at times explicitly voiced in Russia." This is true. How can this possibly make you suspicious about the article's main topics? You wrote a lot about nothing.

In itself, this single sentence is true about every country on Earth; what gives it meaning is the context where it's followed by heaps of praise of Western racial policies, the positive example against Russia's and others' negative examples. I think it is relevant that this contrast does not quite make sense. If you allow yourself to smear a society of 140 million people in a single sentence, perhaps your hundreds of pages summarizing a society 10x as large is also a bit of a smear.

BTW, from a brief glance at your comment history, most appear to have a strong anti-Chinese sentiment. I think that if you want to argue that the report is largely correct, it will be more interesting if you elaborate on that instead of talking about whatever I said in the grandparent comment.

Re: Strategic Consequences of Chinese Racism: Strategic Asymmetry for the USA (2013) [pdf]

#10
Very long read. TBH I only read the beginning and end carefully, and skimmed through the middle...200? pages.

What really stuck out to me was this line that explains how racism benefits the Chinese government: "First, the Han Chinese possess a strong in group identity with a polarized and tightly defined out group. This allows the Chinese government to expect sacrifice and as well as support from the considerable majority of the Chinese people."

Perhaps a lot of these attitudes come from how in many Chinese people's eyes, their golden years were when they had very little outside influence and were able to invent some of the most useful inventions in human history (compass, paper, gunpowder). From the time that they have mixed with the West, they have had some very negative experiences, (as the report brings up, the Opium wars, burning of the palace). Perhaps their attitudes will change slowly now. In my experiences, racism is something that is slowly taught/instilled, and so I don't expect any easy reversal.

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