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SpaceX to Send Privately Crewed Dragon Spacecraft Beyond the Moon Next Year

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Re: SpaceX to Send Privately Crewed Dragon Spacecraft Beyond the Moon Next Year

#261

Post by XorNot »

jessriedel wrote: post #253
dperfect wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> China has been working up to getting a space capability to send people to the Moon with the full backing of the government funding, by 2035[1]. They started in 2003. SpaceX was founded in 2002 and they are saying they will fly someone around the moon next year? I don't want to downplay SpaceX at all because I'm a huge fan, but isn't flying someone to the moon (and presumably back) more complicated than just flying…

Right. SpaceX doesn't have a craft capable of lunar orbit rendezvous https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lunar_orbit_rendezvous so they would need to return to the Earth directly from the surface of the moon https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_ascent Direct ascent requires a much larger initial launch mass, i.e., a larger rocket than has ever been built. Since it took the massive Saturn V to complete the Apollo missions u…

SpaceX for a landing mission wouldn't try and build a larger rocket, they'd definitely argue to just do multiple launches instead. Fuel tankering is within their area of interest for Mars.

Re: SpaceX to Send Privately Crewed Dragon Spacecraft Beyond the Moon Next Year

#262

Post by neurotech1 »

stupidcar wrote: post #241
neurotech1 wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree about the "quick buck" The surprising thing about this announcement is that its a private mission. SpaceX has long resisted private tourism, to pursue CRS and Commercial Crew missions. I'm sure several billionaires would have written a large check, long ago, to go into orbit.

Have they really resisted it? SpaceX haven't had, and still don't have, a spacecraft capable of carrying people into orbit, so it's not like they've left money on the table. Delivering satellites and cargo was a good way to fund and prove the rocket themselves, without which any tourism is obviously a non-starter. And working with NASA on the Commercial Crew programme provides access to NASA expertise and facilities…

Yes, SpaceX resisted earlier tourism opportunities for a few reasons. One reason was they didn't have the corporate resources to do tourism flights, and do the R&D for CCDev & Commercial Crew Program (CCP), so they focused on Commercial Crew.

Another reason is that NASA doesn't want tourist flights to the ISS, and no private destinations were close to ready. Lets say CCP funding was delayed, and a private team offered $400m for tourist flights, they'd have to develop two different Dragon capsule specifications. One for ISS, and one for private tourism. Similar, but with non-identical requirements. With the CCP further along, the different specifications may no longer be an issue.

Another reason is SpaceX doesn't have a training program for space tourists, and they'd require a training program. The Russians require 3-6mo of training for a space tourist on the Soyuz.

That said, there are reasons SpaceX went for this plan now, and not before.

Re: SpaceX to Send Privately Crewed Dragon Spacecraft Beyond the Moon Next Year

#263

Post by wallace_f »

paulddraper wrote: post #158
solidr53 wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same! I also think that spending money on a roundtrip to the moon is way better for humanity than spending it on champagne, caviar and cars.

> I also think that spending money on a roundtrip to the moon is way better for humanity than spending it on champagne, caviar and cars. How? I'm not saying you're wrong, but gut instinct is that automobiles are more useful to humans. I'd like to hear your thought process.

I believe the technology that will benefit humanity significantly is in the batteries.

Re: SpaceX to Send Privately Crewed Dragon Spacecraft Beyond the Moon Next Year

#264

Post by nickff »

gigatexal wrote: post #106

Finally the tin-foil hats can be satiated when these tourists see the 50-ish year old flag on the moon.

NASA actually has a post on what the statuses of the flags are; they are probably bleached or disintegrated.[1] Interestingly, I would guess that the flag most likely to have survived would be the one from Apollo 11, because it was too close to the lander, and got knocked over by the ascent module; it may have been covered with dust and protected, but this is only a remote possibility.

note: the post says that the LROC shows shadows from the flags, but it seems highly unlikely they are pristine or even intact.

[1] https://www.hq.nasa.gov/alsj/ApolloFlags-Condition.html

Re: SpaceX to Send Privately Crewed Dragon Spacecraft Beyond the Moon Next Year

#265

Post by grondilu »

runesoerensen wrote: post #5

> We are excited to announce that SpaceX has been approached to fly two private citizens on a trip around the moon late next year. They have already paid a significant deposit to do a moon mission. Can't wait to hear who booked this trip! Definitely one of the coolest ways to spend a lot of superfluous money :)

> Can't wait to hear who booked this trip! Definitely one of the coolest ways to spend a lot of superfluous money :)

Imagine it ends up being some celebrity, like Leonardo di Caprio (who has shown interest in space IIRC) or Lady Gaga. Don't you think it would somehow tarnish the whole thing?

Re: SpaceX to Send Privately Crewed Dragon Spacecraft Beyond the Moon Next Year

#266

Post by ChuckMcM »

dperfect wrote: post #232
ChuckMcM wrote: post #161

Wow. This sends so many thoughts cascading through my head that I'm dizzy. Some things to consider, China has been working up to getting a space capability to send people to the Moon with the full backing of the government funding, by 2035[1]. They started in 2003. SpaceX was founded in 2002 and they are saying they will fly someone around the moon next year? Dragon has the deltaV to land on the moon (not sure if it…

> China has been working up to getting a space capability to send people to the Moon with the full backing of the government funding, by 2035[1]. They started in 2003. SpaceX was founded in 2002 and they are saying they will fly someone around the moon next year? I don't want to downplay SpaceX at all because I'm a huge fan, but isn't flying someone to the moon (and presumably back) more complicated than just flying…

Between flying to the moon and back (no landing) the only difference is fuel and consumables (air/food). The key capabilities are launch, landing, spacecraft communication and operations, and navigational support for computing and executing maneuvers to get into (and out of) a trans-lunar orbit. The more fuel you have the easier it is on the equipment.

Or to put it differently, the difference is that when you get to the Moon you make an orbital injection burn in order to slow yourself down to the point that you can stay in lunar orbit, and then when your done you make another burn to put you back into the trans-lunar orbit.

When you get back you can either do a high speed re-entry or you can do an Earth orbit injection burn.

You still need a vehicle that can carry people for the duration of the trip. You need to get it into a translunar orbit so that you can get out to the Moon. You need to be able to precisely locate yourself in space relative to the Earth-Moon system and course correct to achieve your orbit goals. All of that stuff has to happen either way.

There is an excellent discussion of the various orbit options for getting to the moon in this paper: http://www.esa.int/esapub/bulletin/bullet103/biesbroek103.pd... definitely worth looking over to get a better appreciation on what is involved.

Re: SpaceX to Send Privately Crewed Dragon Spacecraft Beyond the Moon Next Year

#267

Post by irrational »

Stanish wrote: post #260
1001101 wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Along those lines, just the air conditioning for tents in Iraq and Afghanistan circa 2011 eclipsed NASA's budget http://gizmodo.com/5813257/air-conditioning-our-military-cos...

Luckily, it was all worth it. Iraq is a free democracy now, and spreading peace throughout the region.

At the very least it is cooler there now. That is what the A/Cs were for... right?

Re: SpaceX to Send Privately Crewed Dragon Spacecraft Beyond the Moon Next Year

#268

Post by pinewurst »

jessriedel wrote: post #253
dperfect wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> China has been working up to getting a space capability to send people to the Moon with the full backing of the government funding, by 2035[1]. They started in 2003. SpaceX was founded in 2002 and they are saying they will fly someone around the moon next year? I don't want to downplay SpaceX at all because I'm a huge fan, but isn't flying someone to the moon (and presumably back) more complicated than just flying…

Right. SpaceX doesn't have a craft capable of lunar orbit rendezvous https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lunar_orbit_rendezvous so they would need to return to the Earth directly from the surface of the moon https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_ascent Direct ascent requires a much larger initial launch mass, i.e., a larger rocket than has ever been built. Since it took the massive Saturn V to complete the Apollo missions u…

That's not to say that LOR is impossible with a smaller payload. Saturn V enabled a large, complex, redundant set of vehicles. The never successfully launched Soviet N1/L3 with half the TLI payload also used LOR but with much lighter vehicles and a smaller crew.

Re: SpaceX to Send Privately Crewed Dragon Spacecraft Beyond the Moon Next Year

#269

Post by DrScump »

gigatexal wrote: post #106

Finally the tin-foil hats can be satiated when these tourists see the 50-ish year old flag on the moon.

The LRO has provided great photos of Apollo landing sites with the LM base (and the Rovers for later missions) identifiable.

Still looking for the tall black monolith, though.

Re: SpaceX to Send Privately Crewed Dragon Spacecraft Beyond the Moon Next Year

#270

Post by ChuckMcM »

XorNot wrote: post #261
jessriedel wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right. SpaceX doesn't have a craft capable of lunar orbit rendezvous https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lunar_orbit_rendezvous so they would need to return to the Earth directly from the surface of the moon https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_ascent Direct ascent requires a much larger initial launch mass, i.e., a larger rocket than has ever been built. Since it took the massive Saturn V to complete the Apollo missions u…

SpaceX for a landing mission wouldn't try and build a larger rocket, they'd definitely argue to just do multiple launches instead. Fuel tankering is within their area of interest for Mars.

I believe this (mating tanks given multiple missions) is what they were considering. Imagine you have your reusable falcon 9 boost into orbit a 'fuel only' second stage. Land the first stage, put another one on it, and send it up again. Once you have your 'boost pack' up in orbit, presumably docking with each other into a single unit, you launch your crew which attaches to the 'tug' that takes them to the moon.

ULA has a great writeup of how you might do this if you have on orbit refueling capabilities.

And on the one hand it seems like total science fiction but on the other, Elon is talking about next year.

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