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I am an Uber survivor

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Re: I am an Uber survivor

#331

Post by objectivistbrit »

jordigh wrote: post #113

"There is no place for ethics in this business sweetheart. We are not a charity." OMFG I don't know if this is real or not, but given how Uber acts publicly about everything else (breaking the laws until governments are forced to amend the laws for Uber), I'm not surprised at all if this really is the overall attitude that they have for everything.

What especially annoys me about the Uber's management is that they believe themselves to be tough and no-nonsense - but in reality their behaviour is self-destructive. In other words, they are delusional and arrogant, not practical and reality-oriented. I have worked with people like this, though they were not as extreme as Uber.

Travis Kalanick is often painted as an example of Ayn Rand's philosophy in action. [1] I don't doubt he follows his own shallow understanding of her ideas. Still, what she actually said was that it's in your rational self-interest to treat everyone you deal with fairly and trade value for value. I.e., you need ethics to succeed in business.

John Allison of BB&T bank explains this principled approach better than I can [2]. He grew BB&T into a top 10 American bank, but he's the polar opposite of the stereotypical ruthless capitalist.

If you screw people over, you may gain a short-term advantage, but you will inevitably fail in the long-run. Enron, Zynga, Groupon, and countless others have proved this.

[1] https://pando.com/2012/10/24/travis-shrugged/

[2] https://youtu.be/XPSGMbqEGU0?t=3m12s

Re: I am an Uber survivor

#332

Post by yummyfajitas »

cyberpunk wrote: post #305
yummyfajitas wrote: post #282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you just trying to verify the legitimacy of the post? If someone finds the courage to speak out, why would you then try to out them for doing so? Because if it's not legitimate then it's worth knowing that? To me, this story seems far more suspicious than Fowler. Does it even matter if it's faked if most of us could totally believe it's not? Perhaps a variety of fake incidents have caused you to believe things th…

What would be the motivation behind creating a 'false' rhetoric such as the experiences of women in tech? I've certainly seen this happening / had to deal with it, I do feel that this is still an issue and something we need to improve. While it's not an across the board problem, I suspect most women working in tech would agree with me; the story, which I don't stand behind as as legitimate, is very similar to the sor…

I don't know the motivation. Perhaps someone feels harassment is a real problem, but can't find any real examples of it, so feels the need to tell lies for a good cause? Perhaps someone merely wants to harm Uber? They certainly have no shortage of people who hate them.

But regardless of motivation, the facts show that many people are willing to fake stories just to support their "team". Sometimes they do this at great personal risk and cost, e.g. lighting their own truck on fire or making false police reports. As an example of one category, there have been many such incidents since Nov 7:

http://www.dallasnews.com/news/crime/2016/12/23/denton-man-s... http://www.breitbart.com/texas/2016/12/14/hate-hoax-nyc-musl... http://www.philly.com/philly/blogs/real-time/S-Jersey-man-ar... http://www.clickondetroit.com/news/ann-arbor-police-womans-s... http://patch.com/new-york/gardencity/man-who-drew-swastikas-...

So it's hardly beyond the realm of possibility that such a person took an hour to write a medium post in an incognito window for such purposes.

Re: I am an Uber survivor

#333

Post by ganfortran »

mousetail wrote: post #240
jordigh wrote: post #95

> tried to trigger me Man, I really wish the internet hadn't decided that "trigger" means to anger or upset someone instead of the original meaning: provoke an anxiety or panic attack, like lighting firecrackers around war veterans. Not that what Uber is doing here to "Amy" isn't despicable. I'm just a little bothered by this relatively frivolous usage of the word "trigger" compared to the original purpose for using…

I think part of what made Susan Fowler's account credible to many people was that she didn't use the same terminology as university political groups (trigger, survivor, etc). The title, "I am an Uber Survivor", and the first few paragraphs, made me immediately skeptical. After she revealed specific examples of Uber's toxic culture, I began to feel quite guilty.

She is very careful but smart about her article. Title reads "Reflecting On One Very, Very Strange Year At Uber", doesn't seem very accusatory to me, however this only makes the what the article presents even more absurd.

Re: I am an Uber survivor

#334

Post by aorloff »

nanolith wrote: post #317
tyre wrote: post #210

I'm really happy she felt comfortable doing this. What an incredibly brave and strong person—I can't imagine what she must be feeling. What I really want to see is the other 20 men on her team tell their bosses to cut that shit out. We cannot rely on the abused to stand up for themselves; for every one who does there are thousands who cannot. It is on every one of us to report abhorrent behaviour, even if we think so…

If I saw a manager do what she described, no matter how high up the food chain he was, I'd frog march him to HR myself. I don't even care if they fire me for it. We don't tolerate stuff like this in this century.

I know. What I'm struck by in all this is that much of Uber's staff must be really junior. Not just the assholes at the center of these stories, but everyone else around these incidents. Which kind of contradicts the idea that they are a bunch of high performers.

Re: I am an Uber survivor

#335

Post by TorKlingberg »

Arizhel wrote: post #290

>Besides, men outnumber women in tech by a very large margin. It's on our shoulders to help women fight back. Strength in numbers is a thing, and having men who speak up on their own, and who support and reinforce women who come forward can only a be a good thing. Yes, but the problem is that most men in tech these days are "brogrammers" who approve of this behavior and engage in it themselves. Tech is no longer the…

I really don't think misogyny or harassment is connected to nerdy-ness or introversion/extroversion, in either direction. The methods probably very, but I don't think any personality type is free of the proverbial bad eggs.

Re: I am an Uber survivor

#336

Post by bbarn »

I've said this elsewhere in comments, but people really need to let it sink in that HR is not there to help them, they are there to help the company.

It is never in their interest to say "You're right, let's go get that guy!" They are institutionally there to deflect and play things down and prevent law suits.

If you are abused, harassed, or mistreated, see a lawyer, not your company's HR team, who are only going to be advising their own lawyers later.

Re: I am an Uber survivor

#337

Post by Arizhel »

gcr wrote: post #185
vkou wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's surprising to me that neither have pursued Uber in this regard. Reasons to pursue sexual harassment litigation: * You may make some money. Reasons to not pursue sexual harassment litigation: * You will have to devote an enormous amount of money, time, energy, health, and your emotional well-being. * Your lawyers will take half the settlement, either in up front fees, or as a portion of the bounty. * You will g…

Important other reason to pursue sexual harassment litigation: * It gives other survivors a statement of solidarity and validates their experiences. It says that other survivors really weren't crazy; that others had this experience too. For someone who's left doubting their sanity after an incident like this happened, this kind of support is immensely powerful. * It forces these incidents to be drawn into the eyes of…

There's nothing we can do to fix our legal system to make it worthwhile for women to pursue these cases. Our political and legal systems are utterly broken: just look at the latest election for proof. Women who avoid pursuing litigation are simply being realistic with the way things are in America these days. And of course, the people who insist that they should sacrifice their lives to fix this problem are people who have nothing to lose themselves.

Re: I am an Uber survivor

#338

Post by tyre »

mcmoose75 wrote: post #251
tyre wrote: post #210

I'm really happy she felt comfortable doing this. What an incredibly brave and strong person—I can't imagine what she must be feeling. What I really want to see is the other 20 men on her team tell their bosses to cut that shit out. We cannot rely on the abused to stand up for themselves; for every one who does there are thousands who cannot. It is on every one of us to report abhorrent behaviour, even if we think so…

A good deal of this is the entire system of control Uber has (or really, hasn't) implemented here. We already know that managers at Uber use reviews to punish those on their team that are at all critical of them (especially for ethic issues). The "20 men on her team", even if they did want to say something, could reasonably expect to have their careers (and potentially a material amount of Uber stock vesting) impacte…

If Uber had implemented a good system of control, we wouldn't be talking about this in the first place. The question is what do we do when there isn't a good system.

Yes, there is risk to speaking out. It wouldn't be brave to do so if there were no risk. I do think it takes people who are already in a relative position of power to minorities and women in tech–which includes men at the same level—saying that this will not stand, in order for real change to come about.

Re: I am an Uber survivor

#339

Post by yummyfajitas »

cyberpunk wrote: post #318
Nadya wrote: post #285

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Does it even matter if it's faked if most of us could totally believe it's not? With the popularity of people crying "fake news" and the study recently hitting the front page of HN/Reddit that if you repeat a lie enough, people are more inclined to believe it [0], it bothers me to see a sentence like this. Yes, it matters a lot whether or not it is legitimate. "Fake news" never seems to matter to individuals if it s…

No. I don't. I meant that in the context of the overall experiences in women in tech, not women at uber or anything more specific than that. Let me try to rephrase.. Would you be shocked that this sort of thing goes on? I would not. My only point was that the bigger problem is exactly THAT lack of surprise, and not the legitimacy of the post; and that's what we should be talking about. I don't trust anything about th…

I would be shocked that a bunch of high-IQ, high-conscientiousness individuals would repeatedly engage in dangerous activities with a high probability of getting caught, and in such easily provable ways.

Putting on my evil villain hat for a moment, if I want to harass women it won't be at my workplace. It won't be at my favorite bar in Pune where I get laid regularly. I'll take the bus to Mumbai, head to some bar in Andheri where no one knows my face, and do it there. That's just a sign of my rational self interest (and evil villain hat) combined with a demonstrated ability to rub two brain cells together and think a step or two ahead.

Re: I am an Uber survivor

#340

Post by gerbilly »

tyre wrote: post #210

I'm really happy she felt comfortable doing this. What an incredibly brave and strong person—I can't imagine what she must be feeling. What I really want to see is the other 20 men on her team tell their bosses to cut that shit out. We cannot rely on the abused to stand up for themselves; for every one who does there are thousands who cannot. It is on every one of us to report abhorrent behaviour, even if we think so…

Reminds me of 'Bystander Apathy'[1]: i.e. when there is a person in need, the greater the number of people, the less likely anyone will help.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bystander_effect

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