Live data from Hacker News

A Physicist Who Denies That Dark Matter Exists

cosmos.nautil.us

21–30 of 193 posts

Re: A Physicist Who Denies That Dark Matter Exists

#21
post #3

> "If Newtonian physics can’t predict the fixed curves, perhaps we should fix Newton, instead of making up a whole new class of matter just to fit our measurements." I've always felt this way about dark matter, but as a lay person with no background in physics, it's an opinion I'm hesitant to express. if you have a model that predicts something, but the prediction is off by several orders of magnitude, the model is w…

> I've always felt this way about dark matter, but as a lay person with no background in physics, it's an opinion I'm hesitant to express. I have always had the same inclination. It seems like a classic candidate for using Occam's razor. Would love to hear someone who knows more about physics weigh in with a more nuanced viewpoint.

(I have a physics degree, but it’s very rusty at this point)

Particle physics has a long history of noticing gaps in the experimental data that don’t match up with current theories and positing that maybe a new particle would solve the problem. This goes right back to things like the neutrino (which was posited to preserve momentum in certain particle interactions IIRC) and even the neutron.

Sometimes the suggestion pans out, sometimes it doesn’t. You can see this kind of thing in action - when there was that anomaly in the CERN data a year or two ago there were a flurry of papers suggesting possible particles, none of which panned out because the anomaly turned out to be statistical noise. The various particulate explanations for the observed discrepancy between the spiral galaxy rotation curves and the observed distribution of matter are very similar: Take a gap in the data & speculate about what kind of particle would fill the hole.

When you combine the fact that, historically, speculating about whether new particles could explain anomalies in the observed data has been very productive for C20th physics with the reality that physicists are also loath to toss aside general relativity (which has been spectacularly successful) just because of one observed anomaly that has yet to be explained, it’s entirely unsurprising that physicists are keen on new particles as explanations for the galactic rotation curves.

At the same time, every physicist will happily admit that there’s a great big hole in the standard model - i.e. that it doesn’t include gravity at all - and that any unifying theory might also explain away the galaxy rotation curves in a way that doesn’t require new particles. Indeed, if a unifying theory could pull off that trick it would be evidence that the theory has a good chance of being true. Sadly, to date, no one has managed to come up with such a unification, and we have no real idea what such a theory would look like beyond the obvious: that it should explain the observed facts & match QFT & GR in the regimes where those theories are accurate.

Re: A Physicist Who Denies That Dark Matter Exists

#22
post #3

> "If Newtonian physics can’t predict the fixed curves, perhaps we should fix Newton, instead of making up a whole new class of matter just to fit our measurements." I've always felt this way about dark matter, but as a lay person with no background in physics, it's an opinion I'm hesitant to express. if you have a model that predicts something, but the prediction is off by several orders of magnitude, the model is w…

I've also been in the same boat, preferring the intellectual idea of modified Newtonian dynamics, primarily based on the fact that the only real checks we have on gravity are based on relatively short distances cosmologically.

AIUI, assuming that gravity tends to 1/r at galactic distances "solves" the dark matter problem, for galactic rotation at least. The problem is that there are other phenomena that involve invoking dark matter that aren't explained by MOND. In short, changing gravity sounds appealing, but the math doesn't quite work out, just as xkcd commented about it (see https://xkcd.com/1758/ ).

Re: A Physicist Who Denies That Dark Matter Exists

#23
post #3

> "If Newtonian physics can’t predict the fixed curves, perhaps we should fix Newton, instead of making up a whole new class of matter just to fit our measurements." I've always felt this way about dark matter, but as a lay person with no background in physics, it's an opinion I'm hesitant to express. if you have a model that predicts something, but the prediction is off by several orders of magnitude, the model is w…

Remember the discovery of Neptune? I mean, not directly, since everyone from that time is dead, but....

That's a nice example of a prediction being wrong, inventing an as-yet-unobserved chunk of matter to fix it, and that invention then being correct.

Of course, there's a counter-example in the inner solar system in the form of Vulcan. It was invented to explain Mercury's orbit, but the solution ended up being Relativity. So it's not always the right answer.

If you want examples involving entirely new classes of matter, I believe neutrons and neutrinos would fit the bill. Both were invented to explain discrepancies in theories well before they were directly observed.

Remember that coming up with a new type of matter is a form of fixing the model. The model is, essentially, "what does the universe actually look like?" If adding a new type of matter gets you closer, then that's fine. If changing the equations works better, then that's fine too.

Remember that dark matter isn't just some arbitrary fudge factor that gets inserted into the observations to make the numbers come out right. It is a comprehensive theory that allows for observations and predictions. No, nobody knows just what it actually is, but there's a great deal of evidence that there is a lot of "stuff" in the universe which interacts gravitationally but not in other ways.

I see this sentiment a lot, and I'm not sure that dark matter skeptics understand just how much supporting evidence there is for dark matter, or just how difficult it is to "fix Newton." People have been trying real hard for a long time, and nobody has been able to come up with anything like a coherent modification of gravitation that explains the observations.

Re: A Physicist Who Denies That Dark Matter Exists

#24
post #3

> "If Newtonian physics can’t predict the fixed curves, perhaps we should fix Newton, instead of making up a whole new class of matter just to fit our measurements." I've always felt this way about dark matter, but as a lay person with no background in physics, it's an opinion I'm hesitant to express. if you have a model that predicts something, but the prediction is off by several orders of magnitude, the model is w…

There used to be this theory of Phlogiston, which was a material substance of heat (if you put a lit match under a brick, phlogiston would move from the match to the brick.) Today of course, this sounds ridiculous. But my physics teacher was always keen to point out that the people involved weren't stupid and that it was an important theory because it was a good starting mental model of how things actually worked and…

Phlogiston is an absolutely reasonable theory given what was known at the time. It's a really interesting example. Phlogiston is basically negative oxygen. It's very similar to how our traditional notion of electrical current moves in the opposite direction from the actual electrons, because people had no idea whether positive or negative charge was the one that moved around, and they just arbitrarily assigned the positive charges as the ones that moved.

It doesn't quite work that way, because charges can be positive and negative, whereas oxygen can only be positive or zero. But until you're able to do some pretty careful measurements, or create a good vacuum, it's hard to tell.

It's a great analogy. Phlogiston theorized that combustion involved an undetectable (with the technology of the day) substance. That substance was investigated over time and the theory was refined until eventually people figured out that the sign was inverted. If you think of "the opposite of oxygen" as still being a pretty solid theory, not absurd, it comes out looking pretty good.

Re: A Physicist Who Denies That Dark Matter Exists

#25
post #23
post #3

> "If Newtonian physics can’t predict the fixed curves, perhaps we should fix Newton, instead of making up a whole new class of matter just to fit our measurements." I've always felt this way about dark matter, but as a lay person with no background in physics, it's an opinion I'm hesitant to express. if you have a model that predicts something, but the prediction is off by several orders of magnitude, the model is w…

Remember the discovery of Neptune? I mean, not directly, since everyone from that time is dead, but.... That's a nice example of a prediction being wrong, inventing an as-yet-unobserved chunk of matter to fix it, and that invention then being correct. Of course, there's a counter-example in the inner solar system in the form of Vulcan. It was invented to explain Mercury's orbit, but the solution ended up being Relati…

>particles invented before being directly observed as support of dark matter hypothesis

Correct me if I'm wrong, which is quite likely, but isn't it one of the qualities ascribed to dark matter that it doesn't interact with 'ordinary' matter or photons in any way other than gravity, and therefore can't be directly observed?

Or to turn the question around, is the dark matter hypothesis actually falsifiable?

Re: A Physicist Who Denies That Dark Matter Exists

#26
post #3

> "If Newtonian physics can’t predict the fixed curves, perhaps we should fix Newton, instead of making up a whole new class of matter just to fit our measurements." I've always felt this way about dark matter, but as a lay person with no background in physics, it's an opinion I'm hesitant to express. if you have a model that predicts something, but the prediction is off by several orders of magnitude, the model is w…

Newtonian physics can predict fixed curves, you just have to assume that there is additional matter you don't see through a telescope, aka 'dark' matter. And as it turns out, if you then look at the cosmic microwave background, you see that cosmology works a lot better if you have an additional uncharged field, that has a similar mass density as the missing matter in galaxy. When you then look at the large scale structure of galaxies, then it turns out that it looks like there is an additional component to galaxy formation, that again seems to be uncharged but otherwise looks a lot like normal matter.

Now, the picture is only mostly as neat now than it was a few years ago, since there is now quite a bit strain with particle physics, but still everywhere in astrophysics it looks like there is some component missing. If that component is dark-matter or a modification of gravity or a remnant of something else is a question about which story journalists want to tell. The thing is, nature does not have to adhere to how we name the left or right hand side of an equation, and that is on a phenomenological level really the difference between mond and dark matter, you either write the term on the gravity side or on the matter side of Newton's law.

It is not that physicists invent an invisible component to make a model work, physicists look at the universe and find hints of a missing matter component everywhere. It is just that journalists love to claim that scientists are puzzled.

Re: A Physicist Who Denies That Dark Matter Exists

#27
post #3

> "If Newtonian physics can’t predict the fixed curves, perhaps we should fix Newton, instead of making up a whole new class of matter just to fit our measurements." I've always felt this way about dark matter, but as a lay person with no background in physics, it's an opinion I'm hesitant to express. if you have a model that predicts something, but the prediction is off by several orders of magnitude, the model is w…

> no other field would invent invisible stuff to explain that the model is still right.

This is a great line! But, it's not fair.

The inventing of invisible stuff is an attempt to fix the model. The current model is known to be wrong, because the experimental data isn't matching the model. We have evidence of motion we can't explain... ok, something must be causing it. Right?

Black holes and gravity are invisible things predicted by physics.

Re: A Physicist Who Denies That Dark Matter Exists

#28
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Remember the discovery of Neptune? I mean, not directly, since everyone from that time is dead, but.... That's a nice example of a prediction being wrong, inventing an as-yet-unobserved chunk of matter to fix it, and that invention then being correct. Of course, there's a counter-example in the inner solar system in the form of Vulcan. It was invented to explain Mercury's orbit, but the solution ended up being Relati…

>particles invented before being directly observed as support of dark matter hypothesis Correct me if I'm wrong, which is quite likely, but isn't it one of the qualities ascribed to dark matter that it doesn't interact with 'ordinary' matter or photons in any way other than gravity, and therefore can't be directly observed? Or to turn the question around, is the dark matter hypothesis actually falsifiable?

It obviously doesn't interact with ordinary matter very much, or else it would have been observed non-gravitationally by now. It could interact a little bit, though. Consider neutrinos: they almost don't interact with ordinary matter at all, but they can be observed with enough patience and care, and they are definitely real.

Neutrinos were actually an early candidate for dark matter. The numbers didn't work out, but it's an example of something that would interact weakly.

And sure, dark matter is falsifiable. If observations are made where gravity appears to deviate from what's visible and can't be explained by adding invisible mass, that would falsify it. Or if someone finally comes up with a change to the known laws of physics which explains the observations better than dark matter does, that would do it.

Remember, nothing is truly "directly observed." All we can do to observe stuff is to see how it affects other stuff. Whether it's with photons or with gravity, it's all ultimately indirect.

Re: A Physicist Who Denies That Dark Matter Exists

#29
post #18

So this doesn't actually get into the actual big issue with MOND which is that observational results [1] tend to imply some sort of dark matter so current MOND theories actually include some dark matter, just less of it. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullet_Cluster

> actually include some dark matter

They include some non-luminous matter, but only require 1/5th to 1/10th as much as would be required by Dark Matter theories. So I think saying they require 'Dark Matter' is confusing. They don't really require a new class of matter and could easily be explained by the presence of some amount of non-luminous baryonic matter in some cases which hardly seems outrageous.

Re: A Physicist Who Denies That Dark Matter Exists

#30
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Remember the discovery of Neptune? I mean, not directly, since everyone from that time is dead, but.... That's a nice example of a prediction being wrong, inventing an as-yet-unobserved chunk of matter to fix it, and that invention then being correct. Of course, there's a counter-example in the inner solar system in the form of Vulcan. It was invented to explain Mercury's orbit, but the solution ended up being Relati…

>particles invented before being directly observed as support of dark matter hypothesis Correct me if I'm wrong, which is quite likely, but isn't it one of the qualities ascribed to dark matter that it doesn't interact with 'ordinary' matter or photons in any way other than gravity, and therefore can't be directly observed? Or to turn the question around, is the dark matter hypothesis actually falsifiable?

There is a (waning?) hope that dark matter interacts weakly with ordinary matter, which would make it detectable: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weakly_interacting_massive_par...
Post reply on HN