Live data from Hacker News

How Ikea's Billy bookcase took over the world

bbc.com

131–140 of 246 posts

Re: How Ikea's Billy bookcase took over the world

#131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Yet art is insanely expensive. That's not true. There are a billion people putting their art on the Internet every day: DeviantArt, Pinterest, Flickr, Shutterfly, and other sites with fan fiction, manuscripts of books, cartoons, millions of homemade videos, music sites. The average price of all of this art is zero. Only a very tiny fraction of people make money with art.

> The average price of all of this art is zero. And the average quality is less than zero.

I don't think so... I think we are being spoiled by the vast amounts of. I am one of the generations who had formative experiences before internet, and I would have been completely transfixed by the stuff on say, deviantart. I could look at weird stuff in the library for hours sometimes, and half of that was not very good at all.

Re: How Ikea's Billy bookcase took over the world

#132
post #3

> Ingvar Kamprad "is said to fly economy and drive an old Volvo. This frugality may help to explain why he is the world's eighth-richest man - although the four decades he spent living in Switzerland to avoid Swedish taxes may also have something to do with it."

Kamprad structures his business as a charity. https://www.fastcodesign.com/3035734/infographic-of-the-day/...

A charity for his family

Re: How Ikea's Billy bookcase took over the world

#133
post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a record collector, I feel your pain. For depth I'd look at the Galant shelves. Even the shallower upper units are 40cm deep, and it's wide enough for games in the way that Expedit wasn't. http://www.ikea.com/us/en/catalog/products/S59184629/

The open backed Kallax units are the ideal size for storing 12" vinyl, and the vertical dividers mean you don't have too many records leaning on each other. They are also good for larger items that need to overhang the back of the shelf a bit.

I really like Kallax, there's something really neat about your storage being composed entirely of cubes of 33 (or 1 cubic ft cube in freedom units).

Re: How Ikea's Billy bookcase took over the world

#134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the case of Kamprad, it is definitely merely marketing. He hates paying taxes, and used the same passion for optimizing furniture to optimize his company structure. IKEA is one of the most complicated legal tax-evasion structures around. It is believed that a few percent of the worldwide revenue - not profits! - are going straight into Ingvar's pockets, tax-free. That's quite a feat.

"tax evasion" = illegal. I think you mean tax avoidance.

True technically but he is in dark grays - only a handful "national treasure" Swedish companies can make the Swedish state sometimes, not exactly look the other way, but not look very HARD.

(This was a long time ago of course, nowadays, IKEA is not very Swedish at all. It's not very particular anything. It's only one holistic system of systems, one vast and immane, interwoven, interacting, multi-national.)

Re: How Ikea's Billy bookcase took over the world

#135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not really that eccentric. If I lost a few million dollars on opening, I'd probably want hashbrowns with my mcmuffin.

I'd probably skip McDonalds and find an early house.

what's an early house?

Re: How Ikea's Billy bookcase took over the world

#136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pretty much all the answers below you are wrong :) The real reason is simply that nobody wants it. The machinery/etc exists to make it completely trivial to productionize semi-custom and completely custom furniture, out of high quality wood. From 5-axis CNC to multi-angle boring machines to what have you. Heck, with the copy of alphacam i have, i could program pretty much most of a factory. (and it doesn't need to ac…

> The real reason is simply that nobody wants it. Could you expand on that? Obviously people do want Ikea, so why wouldn't people want mass-produced really-good furniture?

Sure. Let's look at some of the major pieces of furniture people have: Tables, cabinets, chairs. It's the same story with all of them.

Let's start with cabinets. A bit of cheating since most people don't consider it furniture, but worth talking about.

Most people want white or colored cabinets. The "natural wood" look is mostly out of style these days, due to mass over-production of red-oak cabinets (and thank god. they made them because red oak was the cheapest most available hardwood in the us for many many years) Where it isn't, they want something that "looks" like cherry (or what they think cherry looks like), or mahogany but isn't.

People are more than happy to buy cabinets with thin veneers or laminated whatever on them. They have no concept of construction quality, etc. They don't care. People who do care are willing to pay, but even then, don't know what they are paying for.

Given that, what precisely supports the price differential of making "really good" for people who don't care and aren't willing to pay for it?

The answer is "nothing" :)

Thus, it's not cost effective to make cabinets out cherry, when coloring poplar reddish will do.

It's also usually not cost effective to use real wood for anything that is going to be topcoated a solid color.

But again, you have this issue that there is a high-end, and a low-end, and the middle end doesn't exist, really, it's just low-end stuff sold at a higher price. Because they can.

It's pretty much all mass produced, BTW. Note: The last part to be automated is finishing, and as the cost of flat-line finishing machines comes down from 100k to 10k, the number of shops buying them goes up, as happened with regular CNC.

But even in finishes, people can't tell what they are paying for. In an ideal world, you want your cabinets done with a nice 2k post-catalyzed conversion varnish (US) or 2k urethane (europe). Or uv-cured stuff that is equivalent. They will be very highly scratch resistant, highly moisture and chemical resistant, etc.

Can a consumer tell? No. They will look identical at the start. Unless you rubbed acetone on them, you are unlikely to be able to tell if the finish is a post-cat or not from the finished product. You would have to place 3-4 years wear and tear on them, and see how scratched and stained they look.

So instead, a ton of non-factory cabinet makers still use pretty crappy finishes (pre-cat lacquers, etc) because they are cheap and fast. 2k stuff requires accurate mixing and has a pot-life. Good folks these days use cyclomix or equivalent, or uv cure, or something, to make up for this. But the main sales point is lack of callbacks, which is hard to quantify. This kind of quality is hard to sell. Nobody (well, not enough people) really look at their cabinets n years later and says "hey, i bet that guy didn't do a great finishing job", instead they say "gee, i guess i'm hard on cabinets".

Interestingly, plenty of commercial work will call you on this kind of thing happening. But consumers just suck it up.

That's cabinets. Let's say that's a special case for a second.

Tables.

Well, okay, so to start, people do buy mass produced really-good stuff already. IIRC, most of the furniture restoration hardware sells is mass-produced.

I've also seen really well-made mass-produced stuff at crate and barrel before (in fact, in one case, better than i could make it by far, and i've been woodworking for 20+ years)

But most people are not willing to pay for this stuff, and those who do, are willing to buy cheaply made stuff for higher prices.

Let's take http://www.crateandbarrel.com/dakota-77-dining-table/s517252

Top is solid wood, pretty simple and machined construction.

You could produce it really cheaply with machines (and i'm sure they do)

But people are willing to pay 1499, and if i make the same thing, with a veneer top and same glued-on live edge (IE not "really-good"), and sell it for half price, people will buy it.

So why would i make it "really good" for 799 when i can make it "really crappy" for 799 and people buy it?

and that's precisely what happens!

Chairs are the same.

In general, people care what things look like, not how they are made or what they are made of.

So most people aren't willing to pay for quality, even if you tried to educate them about what it looked like (if you have to educate your market that you are better, you are probably going to lose) This makes it not cost-effective to try to optimize for quality.

Somebody will just out-sell you and out-profit you by making it crappily and selling it for 80% of the same price.

This is in fact, the history of the world here. The good stuff either got pushed to the high end, or out-sold/out-stripped by people making crappy stuff and selling it at the middle end, and then making super-crappy stuff and selling it at the low-end.

In any of these markets, there isn't room in the market for this linear-curve of quality vs pricing. If quality vs price was a 10 point scale, it'd look like this right now:

quality: 1-3 price: 1-6

quality: 4-9 price: 7-8

quality: 10 price: 9-10

As a result, quality 4-9 doesn't get done much, and it makes no sense to make quality 10 furniture and sell it at price 2.

Re: How Ikea's Billy bookcase took over the world

#137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For a significant part of that interval, Swedish taxes were in excess of 100% for very high earners. Can one blame him?

It wasn't that common, but it was a real phenomenon that personal income marginal taxes could exceed 100 %. The Social Democrats in Sweden got angry when Astrid Lindgren pointed it out, and it seems some Hacker News readers with a downvote button become angry in the same way when this is mentioned. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pomperipossa_in_Monismania

Maybe a pedant got angry. AFAIK it never exceeded 100%, but it could get pretty close to 100% which is kind of an outrage in itself.

Re: How Ikea's Billy bookcase took over the world

#139
post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wait until you see art... There is no regulation, it comes with probably no return policy. It requires one person to do -- art doesn't need capital to start at all. Yet art is insanely expensive. Do you rather be a programmer, an engineer, a fashion designer, a woodworker, or an artist? I don't have a good answer for your question, but I think the idea here is everyone needs a living. Also, you don't need to purchase…

> Yet art is insanely expensive. That's not true. There are a billion people putting their art on the Internet every day: DeviantArt, Pinterest, Flickr, Shutterfly, and other sites with fan fiction, manuscripts of books, cartoons, millions of homemade videos, music sites. The average price of all of this art is zero. Only a very tiny fraction of people make money with art.

>DeviantArt

Did anyone else shudder?

Re: How Ikea's Billy bookcase took over the world

#140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm still nowhere near that, but I've taken to count my books in linear meters (currently ~15). They're mostly stored in kallax (formerly expedit) bits and three kallax cells is a metre, so that's convenient. (incidentally, a billy is 80cm wide and 6 shelves high, so each billy is close to 5 linear metres, which means your friends have 60~70m worth of books)

60-70 m of books, assuming he uses only one layer in Billy. I have two, and occasionally three (though it's not Billy but another higher-quality shelf maker Lundea).

True, I assumed single-layer as billy isn't open-backed and I prefer seeing all my books. Also billy seems a bit short for two layers to be comfortable and not risk damaging books, even with small-ish paperbacks.
Post reply on HN