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How Ikea's Billy bookcase took over the world

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Re: How Ikea's Billy bookcase took over the world

#121

Post by Freak_NL »

computator wrote: post #116
Freak_NL wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's the economy of scale; complexity is mostly a one time upfront cost. Once you've figured out how to efficiently make a hundred TVs at a time, you know how to make a million. For a TV most of the materials and components are either plastic (and thus light and cheap) or generic silica based stuff that is produced in batches of millions at a time (electronic components) in the blink of an eye. The most expensive par…

Lots of global companies make TVs (LG, Samsung, Philips, Toshiba, Panasonic, Sharp, Sony, ...) but it seems that "there are no real Ikea competitors in the world, period."[1] So why aren't there more globally operating corporations selling furniture? Could there be an opportunity for a higher-end (better than Ikea) highly-automated global furniture maker to take away market from thousands of small local furniture mak…

Perhaps a combination of much more variation in both models and regional tastes. TVs get replaced a lot faster than good quality dining tables too. Come to think of it, there really isn't that much of a variety in choice of TVs (a few sizes, perhaps a curved screen or not) compared to dining tables — the latter are much more personal in taste.

Re: How Ikea's Billy bookcase took over the world

#122

Post by DannyBee »

Freak_NL wrote: post #113
computator wrote: post #93

There's a disconnect when I look at the price of good furniture compared to products that are insanely more complicated (laptops, smartphones), heavier than furniture (motorbikes, snowblowers, lawnmowers), as bulky as flatpack bookcases (big screen TVs), and need to be shipped even greater distances than furniture (all my examples would be coming to the U.S. from Asia). Furthermore, furniture has much less regulation…

It's the economy of scale; complexity is mostly a one time upfront cost. Once you've figured out how to efficiently make a hundred TVs at a time, you know how to make a million. For a TV most of the materials and components are either plastic (and thus light and cheap) or generic silica based stuff that is produced in batches of millions at a time (electronic components) in the blink of an eye. The most expensive par…

"With a wood table the production of all parts takes much more labour"

No, they don't. Really. This is a pretty trivial application of CNC.

I CNC table legs on my simple one, and have designed much larger CNC automations for local shops that CNC them. The people who are doing it at factory scale would find this utterly trivial.

" and high quality wood furniture is usually made of parts that have exact measurements and specifications for that particular model of table."

This doesn't mean anything to the robots. Really. They just don't care. They are already automatically referencing and aligning things to get them square. They use lasers or other sensors plus vacuum to automatically align it to alignment pins within 0.001".

Just not a big deal.

"Wood is also a live material; no two pieces are alike (this holds true from the unprocessed logs to the finished table legs)." Again, sorry. I pay my supplier for 90% red cherry. I could pay him for 100% red cherry. If you think i can't make a computer grain match stuff, etc, i don't know what to tell you. more automated cnc cabinet shops do it all day long.

" Lumber also needs time to acclimatize, so the whole resources to product cycle takes a lot longer (increasing storage costs)."

No, it doesn't, it's kiln dried, and the only thing that matters is the climate it's going to. For what is being done to it (making a table), it doesn't matter since the top will be floating anyway.

"Also, unless you are Ikea, a globally operating corporation can sell a lot more TVs than dining tables. "

This is literally the only reason: People don't want it compared to the ikea furniture. They don't care, and aren't or can't pay a premium.

Re: How Ikea's Billy bookcase took over the world

#123

Post by kobeya »

computator wrote: post #93

There's a disconnect when I look at the price of good furniture compared to products that are insanely more complicated (laptops, smartphones), heavier than furniture (motorbikes, snowblowers, lawnmowers), as bulky as flatpack bookcases (big screen TVs), and need to be shipped even greater distances than furniture (all my examples would be coming to the U.S. from Asia). Furthermore, furniture has much less regulation…

Actually I'm pretty sure the molecular machines that make up your wooden dining set are billions of times more complicated than your TV...

Re: How Ikea's Billy bookcase took over the world

#124

Post by computator »

DannyBee wrote: post #119
computator wrote: post #93

There's a disconnect when I look at the price of good furniture compared to products that are insanely more complicated (laptops, smartphones), heavier than furniture (motorbikes, snowblowers, lawnmowers), as bulky as flatpack bookcases (big screen TVs), and need to be shipped even greater distances than furniture (all my examples would be coming to the U.S. from Asia). Furthermore, furniture has much less regulation…

Pretty much all the answers below you are wrong :) The real reason is simply that nobody wants it. The machinery/etc exists to make it completely trivial to productionize semi-custom and completely custom furniture, out of high quality wood. From 5-axis CNC to multi-angle boring machines to what have you. Heck, with the copy of alphacam i have, i could program pretty much most of a factory. (and it doesn't need to ac…

> The real reason is simply that nobody wants it.

Could you expand on that? Obviously people do want Ikea, so why wouldn't people want mass-produced really-good furniture?

Re: How Ikea's Billy bookcase took over the world

#125

Post by masklinn »

johncoltrane wrote: post #104

- Anecdote - A while ago, a coworker was excited to move to another flat but there was a little something that was going to be complicated: books. He and his girlfriend were both avid readers and their two already impressive collections fused years ago into a massive beast. As we were discussing the "problem", I asked him for a ballpark estimation of the number of books to move, expecting something like "1000 books",…

I'm still nowhere near that, but I've taken to count my books in linear meters (currently ~15). They're mostly stored in kallax (formerly expedit) bits and three kallax cells is a metre, so that's convenient.

(incidentally, a billy is 80cm wide and 6 shelves high, so each billy is close to 5 linear metres, which means your friends have 60~70m worth of books)

Re: How Ikea's Billy bookcase took over the world

#126

Post by rfrey »

fpgaminer wrote: post #84
Terribledactyl wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They have solid wood options, but you have to hunt for them. Also, they tend to up the price and it's "fancier" looking. Your comment makes me wish I had the space to get back into woodworking, but I just bought Ikea today because it fits into a small car and apartment easily.

> Your comment makes me wish I had the space to get back into woodworking, but I just bought Ikea today because it fits into a small car and apartment easily. Yeah, I wish the hobby was more accessible. It's relaxing in a strange way. The work is hard and laborious, but I find a sense of peace, almost like mindfulness, when I'm standing over a piece of wood licking the sand paper back and forth, or concentrating on m…

It's quite accessible if you don't look at too many woodworking magazines. You can do everything to a very high standard with chisels, planes and a few saws.

You're not in it for speed or economy, so why not? In many cases, for one-of-a-kind items, hand tools are even faster than power tools. And the mess left behind is shavings that sweep up nicely, rather than dust that gets everywhere.

I had a very nice shop in a spare apartment bedroom when I was single, and built a few celtic harps, a guitar, several bookcases, and some cabinets, doing most of the work after neighbours were asleep. No complaints about noise or dust.

Re: How Ikea's Billy bookcase took over the world

#127

Post by DannyBee »

fpgaminer wrote: post #52

> The Billy innovations are about working within the limits of production and logistics, finding tiny ways to shave more off the cost, all while producing something that looks inoffensive and does the job. The perfect summary of Ikea's engineering. I got into woodworking recently; designed and built a 50", full-back garden bench from scratch in redwood. The project gave me a more keen awareness of the wood that surro…

" In fact, engineered wood products _can_ be stronger, and get used in building architectures that would not be possible with natural wood. But the stuff used in cheap furniture is MDF and that weird, coarser particle board. My limited research showed MDF as being weaker than most natural softwoods, in terms of strength to density. The lightness of the furniture comes from simply designing the products to use less wood. "

MDF is both heavier and weaker in just about all cases. By far. It's not even a close contest. Part of it is because it's a very short-strand material.

"The odor, caused by binding resins used in the engineered wood, is also an indicator of off-gassing formaldehyde."

(for the interested, it's because they all used urea-formaldehyde glue)

Plywood used in furniture is usually formaldehyde free these days, or has almost undetectable levels (it's all carb p2 compliant). Since about 2009, the levels are about 20x less than they used to be. MDF is not usually FF free, just because of the amount of glue used. But it's still 20x better than it used to be ;)

But to put in perspective: All the plywood i get is FF free, and i don't have to do anything to get it. Columbia, who is the largest manufacturer of plywood in the US, has been making "purebond" plywood since 2005. That's what everyone from home depot, to lumber yards, are selling you now. Other major manufs are similar these days.

You can actually get MDF from columbia that is FF free. Just more expensive.

As for the sustainability: http://www.columbiaforestproducts.com/us/the-columbia-story/ See "In 1999, "

One of the main reasons they use engineered wood is because it's stable. You wouldn't really make the sides of cabinets out of hardwood, it would move too much. They alternate grain direction in plywood to make it very stable dimensionally.

But in terms of what engineered wood, i'd agree using plywood is a better thing to do than using MDF or other particleboards.

Re: How Ikea's Billy bookcase took over the world

#128

Post by ptaipale »

masklinn wrote: post #125
johncoltrane wrote: post #104

- Anecdote - A while ago, a coworker was excited to move to another flat but there was a little something that was going to be complicated: books. He and his girlfriend were both avid readers and their two already impressive collections fused years ago into a massive beast. As we were discussing the "problem", I asked him for a ballpark estimation of the number of books to move, expecting something like "1000 books",…

I'm still nowhere near that, but I've taken to count my books in linear meters (currently ~15). They're mostly stored in kallax (formerly expedit) bits and three kallax cells is a metre, so that's convenient. (incidentally, a billy is 80cm wide and 6 shelves high, so each billy is close to 5 linear metres, which means your friends have 60~70m worth of books)

60-70 m of books, assuming he uses only one layer in Billy. I have two, and occasionally three (though it's not Billy but another higher-quality shelf maker Lundea).

Re: How Ikea's Billy bookcase took over the world

#129

Post by bartvanH »

DashRattlesnake wrote: post #50
detaro wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Lack coffee tables: utter trash, fall apart quickly But perfect width between the legs to mount 19" rack gear.

From what I saw, they're made out of a tiny amount of laminated cardboard. I personally wouldn't trust it, but maybe it would work if all lateral stress was avoided.

That's why many people add extra wood when using a lack table as a rack :)

Re: How Ikea's Billy bookcase took over the world

#130

Post by ensiferum »

IKEA and other similar sell that furniture that is optimized to be 80% of nothing. I say that again, the biggest part of the finished product is nothing.

so what that does mean? It means that if you take a proper durable furniture and compare it with the IKEA counterpart the IKEA furniture has 80% of the matter replaced with nothing. ;-)

Buy once, assemble once then throw it away since i'll fall apart.

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