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The rise of AI is creating new variety in the chip market, and trouble for Intel

economist.com

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Re: The rise of AI is creating new variety in the chip market, and trouble for Intel

#51

Post by Retric »

clarry wrote: post #44
Retric wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They put 'crappy' GPU's on die which they continued to upgrade even when the CPU side stagnated. So, while the last upgrade may have been a process issue, the last 4 CPU refreshes have all been classic monopolist behavior. PS: GPU's might seem like something you want on the CPU, but bandwidth is a killer worse they add heat which directly lowers CPU performance.

Frankly the updates to the GPUs have been very minor, over the past few generations. And for some reason, they don't put anything close to Iris or Iris Pro on the desktop CPUs. I've been waiting for a few generations now to get an Intel CPU with decent iGPU but it's really been stagnant. I gave up the wait and pre-ordered a Ryzen last week. I do still think it makes sense for Intel to ship CPUs with those integrated…

> I do still think it makes sense for Intel to ship CPUs with those integrated CPUs

Why? iGPU's increase production costs AND reduce both CPU and GPU performance. If Intel wants to produce a separate GPU then more power to them, but that's not what they are doing they are a monopoly extending their dominance to another market at the cost of consumers aka us.

Remember, resistance increases with heat, so even it there where zero manufacturing or performance costs it still increases power consumption.

Re: The rise of AI is creating new variety in the chip market, and trouble for Intel

#52

Post by inteld »

mee_too wrote: post #36
coldtea wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> All of which is only possible because they have had a monopoly. You got it backwards: them having a monopoly is only possible because it hasn't been possible for anyone else to produce more efficient desktop/laptop CPUs. On the mobile, where there are competent competitors, it's a different story. It's not as if if they sacrificed their margins they'd magically be able to produce faster processors. Just cheaper one…

>> You got it backwards: them having a monopoly is only possible because it hasn't been possible for anyone else to produce more efficient desktop/laptop CPUs. Intel has patents over the x86 instruction set. >> It's not as if if they sacrificed their margins they'd magically be able to produce faster processors. Just cheaper ones. They have produced slower processor on purpose. Instead of soldering the chip to the he…

Intel has patents over the x86 instruction set.

Not the x86 instruction sets - that's out of patent protection a while ago (patents are max 20 years).

Maybe amd64 (which is more AMDs parents).

Re: The rise of AI is creating new variety in the chip market, and trouble for Intel

#53

Post by lowglow »

deepnotderp wrote: post #50
lowglow wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, what's a good intro on understanding all of this? I've got an EE/Chem/Math background.

For deep learning or chips for deep learning? With an EE/Chem/Math background you should be set to go :) For deep learning, I highly recommend the cs231n course materials (available for free online) and the Deep Learning Book by Goodfellow et al. For chip design for deep learning specifically, it's a fairly new field, and a lot of commercial interests, hence why a lot of it isn't available in the form of an "Intro to…

Thanks! Mind if I connect with you over email?

Re: The rise of AI is creating new variety in the chip market, and trouble for Intel

#54

Post by mee_too »

inteld wrote: post #52
mee_too wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> You got it backwards: them having a monopoly is only possible because it hasn't been possible for anyone else to produce more efficient desktop/laptop CPUs. Intel has patents over the x86 instruction set. >> It's not as if if they sacrificed their margins they'd magically be able to produce faster processors. Just cheaper ones. They have produced slower processor on purpose. Instead of soldering the chip to the he…

Intel has patents over the x86 instruction set. Not the x86 instruction sets - that's out of patent protection a while ago (patents are max 20 years). Maybe amd64 (which is more AMDs parents).

Yes, one can legally build and sell an 8086 clone. But there are tons of patented extensions in newer CPUs, e.g. http://www.patents.com/us-7499962.html .

Re: The rise of AI is creating new variety in the chip market, and trouble for Intel

#55

Post by deepnotderp »

lowglow wrote: post #53
deepnotderp wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For deep learning or chips for deep learning? With an EE/Chem/Math background you should be set to go :) For deep learning, I highly recommend the cs231n course materials (available for free online) and the Deep Learning Book by Goodfellow et al. For chip design for deep learning specifically, it's a fairly new field, and a lot of commercial interests, hence why a lot of it isn't available in the form of an "Intro to…

Thanks! Mind if I connect with you over email?

Sure, my personal email is sixsamuraisoldier [at] g(mail) (dot) [com]

Re: The rise of AI is creating new variety in the chip market, and trouble for Intel

#56

Post by Wildgoose »

tomatsu wrote: post #21
abhianet wrote: post #17

> But the GPUs also have new destinations: notably data centres where artificial-intelligence (AI) programmes gobble up the vast quantities of computing power that they generate. Should not it be "programs"? Or is "programmes" used in some dialect of English I am not aware of?

"Programme" is used in British English for that broadcasting stuff etc. As far as I can tell, they do use "program" for computer programs, though.

That's correct. British English uses "programme" for everything except computer programs.

Re: The rise of AI is creating new variety in the chip market, and trouble for Intel

#57

Post by clarry »

Retric wrote: post #51
clarry wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Frankly the updates to the GPUs have been very minor, over the past few generations. And for some reason, they don't put anything close to Iris or Iris Pro on the desktop CPUs. I've been waiting for a few generations now to get an Intel CPU with decent iGPU but it's really been stagnant. I gave up the wait and pre-ordered a Ryzen last week. I do still think it makes sense for Intel to ship CPUs with those integrated…

> I do still think it makes sense for Intel to ship CPUs with those integrated CPUs Why? iGPU's increase production costs AND reduce both CPU and GPU performance. If Intel wants to produce a separate GPU then more power to them, but that's not what they are doing they are a monopoly extending their dominance to another market at the cost of consumers aka us. Remember, resistance increases with heat, so even it there…

Most people don't really need discrete GPUs, that's why. It's mostly a concern for gamers and enthusiasts.

Furthermore, these iGPUs are incredibly energy efficient, and obviously small. That's great for battery life and PC size.

Re: The rise of AI is creating new variety in the chip market, and trouble for Intel

#58

Post by Retric »

clarry wrote: post #57
Retric wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I do still think it makes sense for Intel to ship CPUs with those integrated CPUs Why? iGPU's increase production costs AND reduce both CPU and GPU performance. If Intel wants to produce a separate GPU then more power to them, but that's not what they are doing they are a monopoly extending their dominance to another market at the cost of consumers aka us. Remember, resistance increases with heat, so even it there…

Most people don't really need discrete GPUs, that's why. It's mostly a concern for gamers and enthusiasts. Furthermore, these iGPUs are incredibly energy efficient, and obviously small. That's great for battery life and PC size.

On motherboard integrated graphics is still a thing. They can still use main memory ect, but now the CPU is smaller increasing yield and lower temperature.
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