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The power of role models

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Re: The power of role models

#221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"It may take proactive behavior, like choosing a women over a man when growing your team, just because, or promoting women more freely." Can you tell me what is equal about hiring a woman over a man, "just because"?

The premise of your argument is that people are hired (or promoted) based on concrete, analytical evaluations of their abilities. Nobody who works in this industry believes that happens. We enjoy discussing how warped industry hiring processes are when it's just shop talk, but introduce gender parity to the discussion and all the sudden it's like someone proposed to round pi down to 3.

If such a problem exists, then its solution does not involve institutionalizing discrimination.

Re: The power of role models

#222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I personally know lots of women who are multimillionaires. Maybe you should be asking them why they don't start VC funds. There is nobody to tell them they can't. Why doesn't Marissa Meyers start one? or Melinda Gates? or Chelsea Clinton? or Madonna? or Ellen Pao? or Oprah?

I can't ask them, because I don't personally know any women who are multimillionaires (except Jessica Livingston, who already does more than nearly anyone on this front). I do personally know a number of men who are multi-millionaires (even a few billionaires). All of them invest in tech; for most of them, I do not know their criteria for choosing what to invest in, but I would guess they try to avoid gender and raci…

Talk to any stock broker. You'll find there are plenty of women with substantial investment portfolios. I don't see how it is the fault of men if those women choose not to fund women startups.

Re: The power of role models

#223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The premise of your argument is that people are hired (or promoted) based on concrete, analytical evaluations of their abilities. Nobody who works in this industry believes that happens. We enjoy discussing how warped industry hiring processes are when it's just shop talk, but introduce gender parity to the discussion and all the sudden it's like someone proposed to round pi down to 3.

If such a problem exists, then its solution does not involve institutionalizing discrimination.

"If" such a problem exists?

Re: The power of role models

#224
post #218
post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This women think that tech would do itself very good if it stopped to constantly congratulate itself on being best meritocracy in the world and attempted to make itself meritocracy. To tell it flat out, tech to me seems to be signalintocracy much more then meritocracy. We don't even talk about what merit is - like ever. We don\t know. If you broadcast the right set of signals and are confident, then you go up. If you…

I wonder why would someone downvote this. To expand on the idea: in meritocracy, networking would matter much less then it matters in tech. Meritocracy would not see "culture fit" as so important as tech have it. Ability to work with others would matter, but there would be no beer test and crap like that. In meritocracy, your ability to socialize after work would matter less. Ability to organize own work would matter…

I don't know. I found the comment hard to parse (but didn't vote it). But in general, remarking on downvotes on HN is an almost certain way to generate a cascade of downvotes.

Re: The power of role models

#225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your "strong feelings" are misguided. As a society or [sub]culture we are not judged on our efforts or philosophies but on our outcomes. And the stakes are higher proportional to the power we collectively wield. If women or other minorities are disproportionately under-represented in our communities then that fact, that outcome, deserves direct acknowledgement, attention, and recompense.

The success difference between first and {second,third,...} borns is probably higher than the one between male/female. Do you support affirmative action for second-borns?

Even assuming your dubious hypothesis, please cite the evidence that second-borns have historically been subjected to systemic discrimination in the workplace.

Re: The power of role models

#226

Programming used to be a field with significant numbers of women, including true pioneers like Grace Hopper. IIRC, female computer science majors peaked in the 80s, and have been declining since. Even with those low numbers these days, a lot of women who are interested in programming and computer science are chased away early on, or they quickly move into more welcoming fields. So it's true that among senior staff, w…

There was a relative peak in the number of women CS graduates in 1985, then a decline over the next ten years, then it started increasing hitting a new peak in 2002 which was larger than the 1985 peak. Then it started declining again until 2008 and then started going up a bit. The data I've got stops at 2011.

Men also have a similar shape curve, just with everything bigger.

It's most useful is to look at the fraction that are women. That rose steadily until about 1985, reaching about 38%, then over the next four years fell to just under 30%. It then was pretty flat until about 2002, then over the next four years fell to about 20% and then flattened again.

That suggests that something happened in a couple specific relatively short timeframes that changed the chances that a women would go into CS or stay in CS.

There are some nice charts here: http://www.computerworld.com/article/2474991/it-careers/wome...

Re: The power of role models

#227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Only with an absurd definition of "merit". Yes, if you define "merit" as including particular genes in your DNA, then you can get away with Pike's attitude and still claim to be merit-based. But hello, reality check, Pike is advocating for something that is not only immoral but also explicitly illegal. The law says that people should be assessed on their skill at the job and not selected due to their gender. Like, wh…

No part of this engages with my comment. You can't convincingly dismiss the entire class of arguments about how "merit" is evaluated as facially absurd, unless your definition of "merit" is "whatever produces the set of circumstances we're currently living in now". Arguments of that form have a name; they're called "the just-world fallacy".

>No part of this engages with my comment.

He was contriving to engage with it; you should be less brief/concise with your talk about priors and premises in this thread.

Re: The power of role models

#228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Yes. Started my tech company with a 4 figure loan from a family member. Am now independently wealthy. I was told I would fail every step of the way from just about everyone. Congratulations for being born into a family that could support you economically. > No. Never needed to. Never needed any other outside capital. That was lucky. Banks don't loan to tech startups. Unless you have assets to put up as collateral (…

4 figures will buy a 5 year old car. Your idea that women cannot start companies because they cannot come up with such funds is quite a stretch. The roads are full of women driving far more expensive cars. The barriers you are talking about are in your mind. People who want to get things done are not dissuaded by such things. People with your attitude always assume other peoples' success was a cakewalk, full of peopl…

So, why do you believe most tech founders are men?

Re: The power of role models

#229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are there any good sources that analyze the causes exodus of women from computer science? To solve these kinds of problems it would be helpful to learn the cause of the change.

I recommend reading "Unlocking the Clubhouse : Women in Computing" by Jane Margolis and Allan Fisher. A good NPR story on this topic : http://www.npr.org/sections/money/2016/07/22/487069271/episo... TL;DR: It was the rise of the personal computer. Boys got more access to personal computers thereby allowing them to get farther in the field.

It's a big ole pile of petitio principii from what I can tell - the reason women didn't continue to enter and prosper in the field of computing (as the narrative goes) is because the field was dominated by men:

>"Because if you're in a culture that is so infused with this belief that men are just better at this and they fit in better, a lot can shake your confidence." (Margolis, ibid) //

Hang on though, the main premise of the piece was that women were most dominant in the field and excelled [beyond the men?].

From personal experience I don't buy the narrative of computers being chosen to be "boys toys" as a move to exclude women, instead it strikes me boys chose computers, instead say of other things - like a social life. But that's maybe because the [apparent] anecdata they have contradicts my own experience, that my mother bought our computer, that it was in a common room and that my sister completely ignored it. At primary school (UK, 1980s) all the kids were given equal time on the BBC microcomputer during lessons, but it was primarily the boys who chose to stay in at break times and after school to use it. At high-school I was inspired by our IT teacher [female] as were others but AFAIR 90% of those staying to use the computers outside directed lessons were still boys.

That link actual goes as far as promoting the idea that boys were given computers and girls were physically restrained from accessing them [based on an anecdote]; to me that sounds like a misconstrual of the situation where boys asked for computers as gifts and so had them in their bedrooms - I can only assume that happened for some girls too.

If I'm wrong then nonetheless I don't think you can argue any similar narrative now, for the Western working and middle classes at least - if you have access to a smart-phone or a school/library computer you have all you need to excel at computer science; that surely eliminates any element of exclusion by sex from the field.

[+] In this connected digital world where no-one knows online if you're even human [woof!] the premise of male suppression in the proposed narrative would be defeated and a massive up-tick would be expected, but instead the graph shows a fall [in percentages] as the web has grown.

In short I don't buy that the ratio of the sexes in computing and tech is skewed by a global male conspiracy to suppress women as a realistic explanation.

[Aside, do you know of the study that they refer to in your citation, the results and anecdotes are mentioned but without citation?]

tl;dr see [+]

Re: The power of role models

#230
post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No part of this engages with my comment. You can't convincingly dismiss the entire class of arguments about how "merit" is evaluated as facially absurd, unless your definition of "merit" is "whatever produces the set of circumstances we're currently living in now". Arguments of that form have a name; they're called "the just-world fallacy".

>No part of this engages with my comment. He was contriving to engage with it; you should be less brief/concise with your talk about priors and premises in this thread.

If you understood it as responsive to my comment, can you explain to me how it was? I'd like to understand it better.
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