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The power of role models

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Re: The power of role models

#201

Post by pjc50 »

ArkyBeagle wrote: post #77
skywhopper wrote: post #12

Programming used to be a field with significant numbers of women, including true pioneers like Grace Hopper. IIRC, female computer science majors peaked in the 80s, and have been declining since. Even with those low numbers these days, a lot of women who are interested in programming and computer science are chased away early on, or they quickly move into more welcoming fields. So it's true that among senior staff, w…

I raised two girls who found the "alpha geek" phenomenon totally repugnant. One is heading back into a CS degree in her thirties; the other went bio and is an entrepreneur. I have to wonder if the chasing away is not to their benefit. Perhaps the ugly is not just a ... social artifact but more of a reflection of the nature of the course of study. Two things spring to mind: - the curious economics of program-correctne…

> "environmental movement" could be an artifact of computing. The mindset that there is a knowable and optimum equilibrium for complex systems is something I find increasingly puzzling

There's a split in environmentalism between the "deep green" who want nature to be left alone and tend to have a spiritualist approach, versus the "bright green" technocratic management of ecosystems. But the deep greens definitely came first, starting with opposition to nuclear testing, the dumping of nuclear waste at sea, whaling, pollution of rivers and acid rain, and the effects of pesticides (Silent Spring was published in 1962)

Re: The power of role models

#202

Post by ArkyBeagle »

skookumchuck wrote: post #169
ArkyBeagle wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As anecdata, one daughter felt that pursuing computing wasn't socially acceptable ( she was a cheerleader and all ) and another felt the first instructor was an abject misogynist. Perhaps women find better things to do :) I'm starting to think there is something wrong with those of us who pursue this.

For another anecdata, when I grew up being into computers meant social rejection, from boys as well as girls. I still recall meeting women in nightclubs and when they ask what I do, I say programming, they shrink and look away. I learned to hide what I did for a living during initial encounters.

I solved that problem by getting married in my musician phase :)

Re: The power of role models

#203

Post by mjibson »

tbirdz wrote: post #190
mjibson wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Does anyone here really have any role models that were influential to their interest in the field? Rob's entire piece is about how a group of women in a highly technical field were influenced by role models. And we're still denying these women's responses?

I tried very hard to make sure my comment did not come across as dismissive, evidently I failed. Just to reemphasize, I am not in any way trying to deny these women's responses. I have just seen this concept of a role model bandied about before, and that is something that I have never experienced in my own life in computing. In the article, Rob mentions how in the field of astronomy, the women he has talked to consid…

I can name a handful of role models in the computing field that were important for my development: Joel Spolsky, Jeff Atwood, Patrick McKenzie, Dan Luu, Steve Yegge. However not until about 2 years ago was there a single women I could think of.

More current role models would include Jess Frazelle, Julia Evans, Sara Chipps, who are all incredibly brilliant, influential, successful people who have achieved really amazing things and I hope will continue in the field and be role models of a future generation.

Re: The power of role models

#204

Post by watwut »

FullMtlAlcoholc wrote: post #149
Oxitendwe wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Was it not his entire point that these people should be given an advantage? What else do you think it means to be "pushed into positions of influence"?

I think his post was that we should challenge our cognitive biases and the male-oriented geek culture. For example, after some members of the team have interviewed a potential candidate for hire, we get together to discuss our observations on him/her. We were choosing between two people and the female, IMO, wrote much cleaner code. The team decided to go with the guy because "he fit the culture better". What this mea…

Even if the two applicants were guys, that decision process is still wrong and has nothing to do with "meritocracy".

Re: The power of role models

#205

Post by skookumchuck »

SwellJoe wrote: post #183
skookumchuck wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> friends and family? Yes. Started my tech company with a 4 figure loan from a family member. Am now independently wealthy. I was told I would fail every step of the way from just about everyone. > bank No. Never needed to. Never needed any other outside capital. My aunt got a loan from a bank to start her own successful business. (She was told that women couldn't get loans to start businesses. She was quite a firecr…

> Yes. Started my tech company with a 4 figure loan from a family member. Am now independently wealthy. I was told I would fail every step of the way from just about everyone. Congratulations for being born into a family that could support you economically. > No. Never needed to. Never needed any other outside capital. That was lucky. Banks don't loan to tech startups. Unless you have assets to put up as collateral (…

4 figures will buy a 5 year old car. Your idea that women cannot start companies because they cannot come up with such funds is quite a stretch. The roads are full of women driving far more expensive cars.

The barriers you are talking about are in your mind. People who want to get things done are not dissuaded by such things. People with your attitude always assume other peoples' success was a cakewalk, full of people showering them with praise and money at every turn. It's just not so. To start a business, you have to get out and hustle. If you're so easily discouraged because you can't raise $5000 or some professor dumped on you, you aren't cut out for business and have nobody to blame but yourself.

(Wasn't it Steve Jobs who sold his car to fund his startup? his company was successful before any investors would give him a nickel. I can't imagine Jobs quitting for any of the reasons you give.)

Re: The power of role models

#207

Post by dominotw »

watwut wrote: post #186
dominotw wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

growing up in a poor country my two options were 1. become a software engineer 2. continue to live rest of your life in dire poverty. This is precisely the reason you would find so many female programmers in south asian and other poor countries. Its funny to see all the armchair philosophers like Pike come up with some 'Well actually, it's because X' explanations without presenting a single bit of evidence to back it…

"growing up in a poor country my two options were 1. become a software engineer 2. continue to live rest of your life in dire poverty" Where exactly? Because frankly, that seems to be highly unlikely.

india . Still true today.

Re: The power of role models

#208

Post by ArkyBeagle »

pjc50 wrote: post #201
ArkyBeagle wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I raised two girls who found the "alpha geek" phenomenon totally repugnant. One is heading back into a CS degree in her thirties; the other went bio and is an entrepreneur. I have to wonder if the chasing away is not to their benefit. Perhaps the ugly is not just a ... social artifact but more of a reflection of the nature of the course of study. Two things spring to mind: - the curious economics of program-correctne…

> "environmental movement" could be an artifact of computing. The mindset that there is a knowable and optimum equilibrium for complex systems is something I find increasingly puzzling There's a split in environmentalism between the "deep green" who want nature to be left alone and tend to have a spiritualist approach, versus the "bright green" technocratic management of ecosystems. But the deep greens definitely cam…

I wonder then how we classify a John Muir? Seems "deep green" to me. I think his oeuvre came from the Romantics.

I am not doing Curtis' thesis justice; you'd have to see the ( freely available, SFAIK ) film. He doesn't just paint environmentalism with this brush. I found the idea bracing; I saw myself in it.

Re: The power of role models

#209

Post by tptacek »

Oxitendwe wrote: post #164
kstenson wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not giving people an advantage, it about giving people equal opportunities to succeed.

"It may take proactive behavior, like choosing a women over a man when growing your team, just because, or promoting women more freely." Can you tell me what is equal about hiring a woman over a man, "just because"?

The premise of your argument is that people are hired (or promoted) based on concrete, analytical evaluations of their abilities. Nobody who works in this industry believes that happens.

We enjoy discussing how warped industry hiring processes are when it's just shop talk, but introduce gender parity to the discussion and all the sudden it's like someone proposed to round pi down to 3.

Re: The power of role models

#210

Post by watwut »

skookumchuck wrote: post #181
SwellJoe wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I responded to someone who said "There's no shortage of women with money." So, in this particular comment, I am saying exactly what I said: There is a severe shortage of women with money who are making decisions in the tech funding industry. I'll go even further to suggest that the gap is even larger in tech investing than it is in tech in the general case. But, since you asked: I will now say that there are biases i…

I personally know lots of women who are multimillionaires. Maybe you should be asking them why they don't start VC funds. There is nobody to tell them they can't. Why doesn't Marissa Meyers start one? or Melinda Gates? or Chelsea Clinton? or Madonna? or Ellen Pao? or Oprah?

Arent most VC funds playing with someone elses money? Like various retirement funds and whatever?
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